Back to the drawing board?

[GordoJay]

I don't see Raptors going away. Those of us who need a truck aren't ever going to buy a Bronco, no matter how capable it is off road. And Ford is a truck company. That they make cars is an accident of history. The Bronco is more Ford trying to build a car that people actually want than the future of the company. If the Bronco fails, it's a bump in the road. If the F150 fails, Ford is done.

 

[gobluejd]

I think this is so wrong. The Bronc is going to eat into Raptor sales, while there may be die hards that hold on, a fully optioned Bronc is going to do a lot of what the Rap can and is a streetable SUV with off road cred. Lots of wives will be convinced they can live with the Bronc who couldn’t quite ok the Rap. Ford sunk quite a bit of effort into re-introducing the Raptor and have poured blood, sweat and tears into accessories. There are literally 20x more accessories for the Bronco that we know about NOW, than there have been for the Raptor since introduction.

I am confused by how you think this will stall/harm the Raptor manufacturing? You realize Ford manufactures 900,000 F150's a year and sell close to 2 per min. If anything, the F150 will harm the Raptor production. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

 

[Chainsaw]

I explained my thoughts on that right after I made the statement. Not sure why you're asking.

Yeah, I can read. It was my way of being polite and saying you're wrong.

What happens a year or two from now is irrelevant. Reviews are overwhelmingly positive and people want to buy it.

The TRX is well-received and represents a significant chunk of lost sales to Ford.

A few minor QC issues and a difference in offroad capability that is irrelevant to 99% of the customer base... does not change that.

 

[gobluejd]

I am confused by how you think this will stall/harm the Raptor manufacturing? You realize Ford manufactures 900,000 F150's a year and sell close to 2 per min. If anything, the F150 will harm the Raptor production. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

Also I realize the Raptor is not an F150 in terms of sales, however due to it being manufactured in one of the same plants, I can not see them not moving forward as planned because of a vehicle made in another plant.

 

[melvimbe]

Yeah, I can read. It was my way of being polite and saying you're wrong.

What happens a year or two from now is irrelevant. Reviews are overwhelmingly positive and people want to buy it.

I disagree. Saying a vehicle that is starting a new gen has no margin for error goes well beyond what's happen right now. As it stands right now, the R won't be released for another year, so if the hype for the TRX falls off hard, the R will have plenty of margin.

The TRX is well-received and represents a significant chunk of lost sales to Ford.

A few minor QC issues and a difference in offroad capability that is irrelevant to 99% of the customer base... does not change that.

I haven't seen TRX sales numbers, but you are correct that much of that are sales Ford could have had. I still think there are plenty of Raptor buyer's out there, as evidenced by the fact that most on these forums aren't jumping to the TRX.

I don't think the issues reported are minor, and certainly not helping a company already known for QC problems. As far as offroad capability, even if the owners don't go offroad, it's a bragging and credentials issue. It's not like the difference 0-60 capability is used either, since 99% of the customers aren't drag racing their truck, but it's matter of bragging and credentials. What I'm saying is that if the TRX gets a poor reputation for offroad capability, being an offroad truck, it's going to be a big negative.

But it's an opinion. Plenty of room to disagree.

 

[smurfslayer]

I am confused by how you think this will stall/harm the Raptor manufacturing? You realize Ford manufactures 900,000 F150's a year and sell close to 2 per min. If anything, the F150 will harm the Raptor production. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

Also I realize the Raptor is not an F150 in terms of sales, however due to it being manufactured in one of the same plants, I can not see them not moving forward as planned because of a vehicle made in another plant.

Yeah, the F150 is a bread and butter vehicle, no doubt. It’s Ford’s signature vehicle which is why they’re slow to make radical changes to it. But, the Raptor is a variant of the F150 and let’s be honest, most of us don’t need it, we want it. The Raptor caters to a driver who enjoys off roading, and now they’re bringing out an SUV to do the same. The SUV will be lighter, probably just as quick, and give up very little to the Raptor.

So, why is a buyer going to spend more for a Raptor when they can buy the Bronco for less and have pretty equal capability -assuming the Bronco makes it to market ;-)

As I mentioned before, if the TRX+Bronco sales significantly eat into Raptor sales, I think the model is in jeopardy.

If I am understanding your points correctly, you’re looking at this from a manufacturing perspective. I’m sure Ford can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time here and bring both models to market. I’m concerned about the implications of having basically direct competition in the same manufacturer line up, while lining up against another manufacturer’s off road truck.

Yes, I know these are different vehicles with somewhat different focus, but there’s enough common traits that consumers are going to look really hard at the Bronco even though the Raptor has the off road cred.

How much do Rap sales suffer?
I don’t know. I am a fan of the Raptor, and hope they keep on improving it.

 

[Chainsaw]

I still think there are plenty of Raptor buyer's out there, as evidenced by the fact that most on these forums aren't jumping to the TRX.

And this FRF-centric worldview is the root cause of our disagreement.

FRF is a poor sample population for anything to do with the TRX (skewed negative) or Raptor itself (skewed positive).

Your original statement was that the TRX was not well-received.

That is anecdotally true on FRF. Not for the general population and vast majority of the target market.

Ford execs are not worried about how the TRX will be doing in 2022 or 2023 or 2027 - they are worried about it now, and that is what drives decisions.

 

[GordoJay]

Yeah, the F150 is a bread and butter vehicle, no doubt. It’s Ford’s signature vehicle which is why they’re slow to make radical changes to it. But, the Raptor is a variant of the F150 and let’s be honest, most of us don’t need it, we want it. The Raptor caters to a driver who enjoys off roading, and now they’re bringing out an SUV to do the same. The SUV will be lighter, probably just as quick, and give up very little to the Raptor.

So, why is a buyer going to spend more for a Raptor when they can buy the Bronco for less and have pretty equal capability -assuming the Bronco makes it to market ;-)

As I mentioned before, if the TRX+Bronco sales significantly eat into Raptor sales, I think the model is in jeopardy.

If I am understanding your points correctly, you’re looking at this from a manufacturing perspective. I’m sure Ford can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time here and bring both models to market. I’m concerned about the implications of having basically direct competition in the same manufacturer line up, while lining up against another manufacturer’s off road truck.

Yes, I know these are different vehicles with somewhat different focus, but there’s enough common traits that consumers are going to look really hard at the Bronco even though the Raptor has the off road cred.

How much do Rap sales suffer?
I don’t know. I am a fan of the Raptor, and hope they keep on improving it.

You could be right. I hope not. Neither the TRX nor the Bronco meet my needs. I need cargo capacity and range along with off road capability. If Ford discos the Raptor, the only Ford I'd consider is the F150 Tremor. Actually, that brings up an ugly thought ... the F150 Tremor is likely to compete for Raptor sales too. Maybe the EPA handwriting is on the wall for the Raptor. Gen 3 could well be the last. That would be a bummer.

 

[melvimbe]

And this FRF-centric worldview is the root cause of our disagreement.

FRF is a poor sample population for anything to do with the TRX (skewed negative) or Raptor itself (skewed positive).

Your original statement was that the TRX was not well-received.

That is anecdotally true on FRF. Not for the general population and vast majority of the target market.

Ford execs are not worried about how the TRX will be doing in 2022 or 2023 or 2027 - they are worried about it now, and that is what drives decisions.

Of course FRF view of the TRX is skewed, but it isn't the only source that has some negative thoughts on the TRX...which is why it's not the only thing I mentioned. My point, whether you call it 'well received' or not is that the TRX can't be considered a hit success at this point, and I would not be surprised if has a not so good reputation a year from now. I'm not suggested Ford doesn't need to react to it, and they are, but when the R comes it out, it may not really matter if it has more HP or a faster 0-60 time.

 

[GordoJay]

Of course FRF view of the TRX is skewed, but it isn't the only source that has some negative thoughts on the TRX...which is why it's not the only thing I mentioned. My point, whether you call it 'well received' or not is that the TRX can't be considered a hit success at this point, and I would not be surprised if has a not so good reputation a year from now. I'm not suggested Ford doesn't need to react to it, and they are, but when the R comes it out, it may not really matter if it has more HP or a faster 0-60 time.

It irks me that Ford is spending the resources to produce the R when they could be using them to improve the Raptor. The R is a dead end. I wish that Ford had let Fiat own that particular cul-de-sac.