Full Race Stock Location Turbos

[nikhsub1]

Turbo lag depends on which turbo size is selected and how hard the tuner is willing to push LSPI (low speed pre ignition)

600 at the crank on stock block appears to be the universally accepted safe limit. But, this is not black and white - the limit is not so much "power output" limit as it is "cylinder pressure" limit. And a bigger turbo will make more HP at lower cylinder pressure. (LSPI causes cylinder pressure to spike at low RPM and a leading cause of piston failure)

Ive had a number of meetings with Ford engineers and the key in making these motors live at high power levels always comes down to one factor - keeping cylinder pressure low. If you can reduce backpressure (larger turbine, larger housing, free flowing exhaust) and maintain sufficient fueling + conservative ignition values the setup can live. That said, it appears HP Tuners is the best way to tune a high power stock PCM Raptor. My personal daily driver has been at 510whp since day 1 (68k miles currently) and while we have not seen any EFR engine failures to date (stock or built) it is advisable to install a set of pistons and rods if you plan on making 600whp+

lastly - if you are considering a 600whp+ build, its somewhat worthwhile to consider an RMB longblock + turbo kit at the same time. RMB installs the Full Race turbokit on the longblock at no charge before shipping to his customers. This is a massive value add and saves an enormous amount of time and money in the long run

There is some company doing 5.0 coyote swaps in Raptors with 700WHP or so - but for $50k! I would imagine an RMB longblock delivered would be less than half that? Am I way off base? I'd much rather keep a TT V6 in here than go to something totally foreign.

 

[full-race geoff]

there is always going to be someone who says "shoulda bought a v8" or "i want the 6.2L back" . Any V6->V8 motor swap is invasive surgery, high labor and high cost. There are very few raptor owners willing to pay $50k for someone to tear up their truck, change strategy, delete turbocharging/DI, etc

On the other hand, a turbo kit + fuel + tune can absolutely do 600+. Above that rods/pistons/oil pump for 650-750+. Of course there is still labor involved but not nearly the same amount. And you do not need to go crazy on the motor to support reliable power. But if you are willing to push the stock motor with big turbos, installing a traditional 3.5L F150 ecoboost oil pump is one of the best ways to make these motors live.

The 700hp dyno chart i posted earlier is so obscenely fast it is not something that can be conveyed through a forum post. You wouldn't think about "needing" 2 more cylinders after driving it

 

[nikhsub1]

there is always going to be someone who says "shoulda bought a v8" or "i want the 6.2L back" . Any V6->V8 motor swap is invasive surgery, high labor and high cost. There are very few raptor owners willing to pay $50k for someone to tear up their truck, change strategy, delete turbocharging/DI, etc

On the other hand, a turbo kit + fuel + tune can absolutely do 600+. Above that rods/pistons/oil pump for 650-750+. Of course there is still labor involved but not nearly the same amount. And you do not need to go crazy on the motor to support reliable power. But if you are willing to push the stock motor with big turbos, installing a traditional 3.5L F150 ecoboost oil pump is one of the best ways to make these motors live.

The 700hp dyno chart i posted earlier is so obscenely fast it is not something that can be conveyed through a forum post. You wouldn't think about "needing" 2 more cylinders after driving it

Oh I agree that a built 3.5 can deliver more than the truck needs - what I am trying to figure out is how much it costs (roughly of course as everyone build will be a bit different) to get to somewhere around 700WHP reliably.

 

[lateralis]

there is always going to be someone who says "shoulda bought a v8" or "i want the 6.2L back" . Any V6->V8 motor swap is invasive surgery, high labor and high cost. There are very few raptor owners willing to pay $50k for someone to tear up their truck, change strategy, delete turbocharging/DI, etc

On the other hand, a turbo kit + fuel + tune can absolutely do 600+. Above that rods/pistons/oil pump for 650-750+. Of course there is still labor involved but not nearly the same amount. And you do not need to go crazy on the motor to support reliable power. But if you are willing to push the stock motor with big turbos, installing a traditional 3.5L F150 ecoboost oil pump is one of the best ways to make these motors live.

The 700hp dyno chart i posted earlier is so obscenely fast it is not something that can be conveyed through a forum post. You wouldn't think about "needing" 2 more cylinders after driving it

What's the deal with the oil pumps? Any reason not to just go ahead and dry sump it at that point?

 

[Ash Keshavarz]

Oh I agree that a built 3.5 can deliver more than the truck needs - what I am trying to figure out is how much it costs (roughly of course as everyone build will be a bit different) to get to somewhere around 700WHP reliably.

I have no idea but with all the supporting factors needed (turbos, internal engine components, fuel system, cooling system, intercooler, waste gates transmission and probably brakes not to mention tune and of course labor costs) how could it possibly be less than 15k to 20k? Probably even more than that. It may be cheaper than the 5.0 coyote swap but it will still be very expensive.

 

[WC114]

Interesting about the oil pump is It a case of more oil pressure ?

 

[full-race geoff]

Interesting about the oil pump is It a case of more oil pressure ?

What's the deal with the oil pumps?

All 2017+ 3.5L engines have a "Variable displacement Oil Pump". This uses an electrical signal from the PCM to reduce oil pump output at low rpm. The reduction in pumping losses improves fuel consumption a small amount. But in our experience, a traditional 3.5L Gen1 ecoboost oil pump with fixed output (using a spring and plunger to regulate pressure) is preferred in high-performance applications. There are some other benefits with cam phasers and valvetrain too.

A simple solution: in your tune, the calibrator can set the oil pump to permanently operate in high flow / high pressure mode

Any reason not to just go ahead and dry-sump it at that point?

dry-sump is a fantastic solution for hardcore builds that do not cut corners. But dry-sumps are an extremely expensive system, the cost is usually a deal-breaker for 90% of builds. For competitive desert trucks and race applications, high G forces and demanding conditions necessitate drysumping

Oh I agree that a built 3.5 can deliver more than the truck needs - what I am trying to figure out is how much it costs (roughly of course as everyone build will be a bit different) to get to somewhere around 700WHP reliably.

I have no idea but with all the supporting factors needed (turbos, internal engine components, fuel system, cooling system, intercooler, waste gates transmission and probably brakes not to mention tune and of course labor costs) how could it possibly be less than 15k to 20k? Probably even more than that. It may be cheaper than the 5.0 coyote swap but it will still be very expensive.

At 700+hp, the same supporting components are needed whether you have a V8 or V6. Responding to your items list:

V6 and V8 same costs:
tuning + fuel system = hp tuners + big port injectors + tune
transmission = stock 10R80 to 600/650whp. at 700+whp clutchpacks and converter

V6 specific:
turbokit = turbos + wastegate + intercooler + radiator (about the same cost as a V8 supercharger)

V8 specific:
supercharger (about the same cost as an ecoboost turbo kit)


While much is the same - costs vary depending on the build spec and labor. Ill ask RMB to post some stats of what his customers are doing/spending. If youre like me and dont mind living dangerously on the stock motor its obviously much less expensive. I have a spare motor that RMB is building so if/when this stocker dies, will use that as a reason to go big

 

[Nood1es]

All 2017+ 3.5L engines have a "Variable displacement Oil Pump". This uses an electrical signal from the PCM to reduce oil pump output at low rpm. The reduction in pumping losses improves fuel consumption a small amount. But in our experience, a traditional 3.5L Gen1 ecoboost oil pump with fixed output (using a spring and plunger to regulate pressure) is preferred in high-performance applications. There are some other benefits with cam phasers and valvetrain too.

A simple solution: in your tune, the calibrator can set the oil pump to permanently operate in high flow / high pressure mode


dry-sump is a fantastic solution for hardcore builds that do not cut corners. But dry-sumps are an extremely expensive system, the cost is usually a deal-breaker for 90% of builds. For competitive desert trucks and race applications, high G forces and demanding conditions necessitate drysumping







At 700+hp, the same supporting components are needed whether you have a V8 or V6. Responding to your items list:

V6 and V8 same costs:
tuning + fuel system = hp tuners + big port injectors + tune
transmission = stock 10R80 to 600/650whp. at 700+whp clutchpacks and converter

V6 specific:
turbokit = turbos + wastegate + intercooler + radiator (about the same cost as a V8 supercharger)

V8 specific:
supercharger (about the same cost as an ecoboost turbo kit)


While much is the same - costs vary depending on the build spec and labor. Ill ask RMB to post some stats of what his customers are doing/spending. If youre like me and dont mind living dangerously on the stock motor its obviously much less expensive. I have a spare motor that RMB is building so if/when this stocker dies, will use that as a reason to go big

What kind of numbers and mods are you doing with your stocker? Ty

 

[full-race geoff]

twin EFR 6258 turbos, 19-20 psi boost, mid boost wastegate actuator. 510whp (mustang dyno) on 91 octane. intercooler/radiator/trans cooler/ mostly stock everything else. Tuned on SCT X4, planning to switch to HPT at the next go around. it's been a great truck for almost 70k miles no issues

 

[nikhsub1]

twin EFR 6258 turbos, 19-20 psi boost, mid boost wastegate actuator. 510whp (mustang dyno) on 91 octane. intercooler/radiator/trans cooler/ mostly stock everything else. Tuned on SCT X4, planning to switch to HPT at the next go around. it's been a great truck for almost 70k miles no issues

So you would recommend better rad and trans cooler then? Guessing Full Race makes those? On a separate note - I have your intercooler and I want the 90 degree rotated BOV - how can I go about purchasing that now since there I can't find that on your site. Thx.