GEN 2 My prediction on the 5.2

[Badgertits]

You live in a world of delusion.

A Mustang GT and $10K thrown at a blower for it's "has been engine" will put down 800+ HP to the ground and run high 9s easily. What's that $450K GT put down? The modded first-Gen V8 GTs are routinely 1000+ HP cars. 1500+ HP is not uncommon.

Stock to stock, sure, the little V6 with a ton of boost does OK against naturally aspirated V8 engines. Modded though, the bigger V8 engines dominate, as always. There is no replacement for displacement.

"Import drag racers are going to start dominating any day now."
"Soccer is going to be popular when those kids grow up."
"The big breakthrough in batteries is right around the corner."
"You can't use more than 700 HP on the street."

^ Other things I can envision you saying.

Damn ya fell right into it- Ford fanboys gotta love it. I have no problem w/ V8s - I just like good ones, from company’s that are hell bent on producing & refining them as staple of their drivetrain offerings across all vehicle lineups- Clearly this is not Ford. It is GM & Dodge. Ford EBs outsell their V8s in 1/2 ton trucks & it’s not even close. Other than a mustang, ford quite literally doesn’t make a single other V8 car. Their entire lineup of highest end luxury vehicles offer EB or hybrid EB powertrains, period. The point I’ve tried to make many times over- Ford isn’t heavily invested in V8s- & even when they were, it was always to play catch up to GM. It wasn’t until 2011 the mustang GT finally got a n/a V8 w/ enough HP to eclipse a ‘98 Z28 bahahahjanah sure as shit, you said it yourself “no replacement for displacement” & Ford started off in ‘11 w/ an oversized (architecturally) undersized (displacement wise) oil burning bottom of the pack 5.0 - smallest of the bunch hahah

So what I’m getting at as a mostly impartial “gearhead” & not a die hard ford loyalist I think I’m speaking for a lot of auto enthusiasts when I say Ford V8s just don’t get me very excited. Ok- back when gen1 Raptor first came out I’m in an ‘07 Silverado w/ 5.3 & then got into a few 6.2s, GM guys laughed “finally” Ford puts a V8 w/ some balls in this thing....but come on, that thing is no comparison to either a GM or Mopar V8 of the same displacement which make more power more reliably get better mpg & have WAY WAY WAY more aftermarket support....so for ME I didn’t consider paying up for raptor until they introduced the gen2 w/ way more features, much less weight, a lot more power/TQ, & all the other little things the fixed/improved upon from previous.

"Import drag racers are going to start dominating any day now."
I don’t think you’ll see the same concentration as domestics @ a dragstrip BUT I do see more imports vs domestics than 10-20 years ago & I do think the GTR, Civic Si, STi, N54 bimers, & blown Audi’s are pretty quick.

"Soccer is going to be popular when those kids grow up."
It’s already popular. Been popular. One of the most popular sports in the world, nothing in the US rivals it’s fanbase internationally, basketballs next closest but far behind.

"The big breakthrough in batteries is right around the corner."
EVs are a fraud on the public- could go on and on, have already made my case on em here.

"You can't use more than 700 HP on the street." Nope. You can’t. At least not in my area (New England) & in the vehicle I’d want it in- but as it stands my Z06 vette will be right around 580whp after the A&A blower install & conservative tuning/boost, at 440ish now. Are we talking 700hp @ the crank or the wheels? What kinda ride? I could use 700whp in a 3/4 ton diesel truck. I can’t use it on a 3080 lb Vette.

Back to the original question tho- try to be impartial & answer this for me, pretend the Mustang isn’t made by Ford- pretend it’s a 2 door rear drive Hyundai w/o a drivetrain & rolls into “counting cars” or some shit.

All kinds of motor choices for it- you tell me what you’d rather drop in it, any of the multiple factory V8 options offered by GM/Dodge, OR (esp in gMs case) the dozens of build to suit Chevy crate motors? Or like one of the 2-3 Ford choices? Come on, you’re a “no replacement for displacement guy” right? So no way in hell you put a ****** Ford 5.0 or 5.2 in there? You could go nuts & drop a Chevy ZZ572 in there if it’ll fit? Eh probably not much bigger than the LOL size of the 5.0 & 5.2 Ford makes all heads & covers & needless size.

I’d drop a HO 3.5 EB in it for $8k or whatever it is turn key

Like I said It’s not that I don’t like V8s- I just don’t care much for Ford V8s- and guess what? ford don’t care either? If they did the aviator, navigator, Any other Lincoln would have a V8 option, they’d make a V8 good enough to compete w/ Dodge/GM instead of having TWO EB motors outselling their lone V8, they’d put a crazy hopped up V8 in their GT or the Raptor- but they did it!!! If anything the trend is Ford continuing to move away from V8s & toward EB, hybrid, electric. That’s where they’re putting their $$$

This is fact

You see the C8 corvette? A pinnacle halo car for GM, they were willing to drop the stick shift & rear drive layout to “get w/ the times”, but what does it have under the hatch? Another small block v8....and they’ll have better ones in the pipeline.

Ford is going a different direction. Accept it. If you don’t like it & miss a V8 that much swap a Chevy crate engine in there they got lots of options lol- OR buy a GM or Ram or Toyota truck.

How tellings is that? TOYOTA offers more V8 options across their truck/SUV/car lineup than Ford. Ford don’t even make a car or SUV w/ a damn V8. This isn’t even really a knock on ford at all, they just decided V8s & cars & body on frame SUVs wasnt the future- I mean how are we even arguing this- their model lineup & future investment into EV charging stations, Rivian, mustang EV, Ford GT EB, & this 600tq hybrid Aviator- all that tells me the V8 platform is of little concern to Ford, & regardless of whether or not they ever do put a V8 in gen3 raptor, WHY the F would I want it when whatever V8 they stick in it will just be a 1/2 ass engineered side piece to their EB/hybrid/EV engineering push.

 

[EricM]

I don't know why you are hung up on what cars or trucks they put a V8 in. "It only goes in one car!!!!!" OK, so it goes in one car. Does that mean that a S/C 5.2L V8 wouldn't dominate every other engine in Ford's lineup and be the most powerful engine available to put in a new Raptor?

You cannot buy a Raptor with a GM engine or Fiat engine, so I'm not sure why you are so fixated on talking about those engines. We (potentially) get to choose from what Ford has on the table.

All the other GM and Fiat BS aside (since it appears you are buying Ford trucks and not the others)- if they were sitting side by side on the dealer lot, and you had the choice to buy a new Raptor with a 500 HP TT V6, or a 625 HP S/C V8 for $8K more, which would you buy? All this discussion boils down to that.

Could you honestly say at that decisive moment- "I choose the V6."

 

[jaggwaa]

[[["Import drag racers are going to start dominating any day now."
"Soccer is going to be popular when those kids grow up."
"The big breakthrough in batteries is right around the corner."
"You can't use more than 700 HP on the street."

^ Other things I can envision you saying}}}}}.

THIS IS TOO GOOD LOLssssssss

 

[jaggwaa]

Damn ya fell right into it- Ford fanboys gotta love it. I have no problem w/ V8s - I just like good ones, from company’s that are hell bent on producing & refining them as staple of their drivetrain offerings across all vehicle lineups- Clearly this is not Ford. It is GM & Dodge. Ford EBs outsell their V8s in 1/2 ton trucks & it’s not even close. Other than a mustang, ford quite literally doesn’t make a single other V8 car. Their entire lineup of highest end luxury vehicles offer EB or hybrid EB powertrains, period. The point I’ve tried to make many times over- Ford isn’t heavily invested in V8s- & even when they were, it was always to play catch up to GM. It wasn’t until 2011 the mustang GT finally got a n/a V8 w/ enough HP to eclipse a ‘98 Z28 bahahahjanah sure as shit, you said it yourself “no replacement for displacement” & Ford started off in ‘11 w/ an oversized (architecturally) undersized (displacement wise) oil burning bottom of the pack 5.0 - smallest of the bunch hahah

So what I’m getting at as a mostly impartial “gearhead” & not a die hard ford loyalist I think I’m speaking for a lot of auto enthusiasts when I say Ford V8s just don’t get me very excited. Ok- back when gen1 Raptor first came out I’m in an ‘07 Silverado w/ 5.3 & then got into a few 6.2s, GM guys laughed “finally” Ford puts a V8 w/ some balls in this thing....but come on, that thing is no comparison to either a GM or Mopar V8 of the same displacement which make more power more reliably get better mpg & have WAY WAY WAY more aftermarket support....so for ME I didn’t consider paying up for raptor until they introduced the gen2 w/ way more features, much less weight, a lot more power/TQ, & all the other little things the fixed/improved upon from previous.

"Import drag racers are going to start dominating any day now."
I don’t think you’ll see the same concentration as domestics @ a dragstrip BUT I do see more imports vs domestics than 10-20 years ago & I do think the GTR, Civic Si, STi, N54 bimers, & blown Audi’s are pretty quick.

"Soccer is going to be popular when those kids grow up."
It’s already popular. Been popular. One of the most popular sports in the world, nothing in the US rivals it’s fanbase internationally, basketballs next closest but far behind.

"The big breakthrough in batteries is right around the corner."
EVs are a fraud on the public- could go on and on, have already made my case on em here.

"You can't use more than 700 HP on the street." Nope. You can’t. At least not in my area (New England) & in the vehicle I’d want it in- but as it stands my Z06 vette will be right around 580whp after the A&A blower install & conservative tuning/boost, at 440ish now. Are we talking 700hp @ the crank or the wheels? What kinda ride? I could use 700whp in a 3/4 ton diesel truck. I can’t use it on a 3080 lb Vette.

Back to the original question tho- try to be impartial & answer this for me, pretend the Mustang isn’t made by Ford- pretend it’s a 2 door rear drive Hyundai w/o a drivetrain & rolls into “counting cars” or some shit.

All kinds of motor choices for it- you tell me what you’d rather drop in it, any of the multiple factory V8 options offered by GM/Dodge, OR (esp in gMs case) the dozens of build to suit Chevy crate motors? Or like one of the 2-3 Ford choices? Come on, you’re a “no replacement for displacement guy” right? So no way in hell you put a ****** Ford 5.0 or 5.2 in there? You could go nuts & drop a Chevy ZZ572 in there if it’ll fit? Eh probably not much bigger than the LOL size of the 5.0 & 5.2 Ford makes all heads & covers & needless size.

I’d drop a HO 3.5 EB in it for $8k or whatever it is turn key

Like I said It’s not that I don’t like V8s- I just don’t care much for Ford V8s- and guess what? ford don’t care either? If they did the aviator, navigator, Any other Lincoln would have a V8 option, they’d make a V8 good enough to compete w/ Dodge/GM instead of having TWO EB motors outselling their lone V8, they’d put a crazy hopped up V8 in their GT or the Raptor- but they did it!!! If anything the trend is Ford continuing to move away from V8s & toward EB, hybrid, electric. That’s where they’re putting their $$$

This is fact

You see the C8 corvette? A pinnacle halo car for GM, they were willing to drop the stick shift & rear drive layout to “get w/ the times”, but what does it have under the hatch? Another small block v8....and they’ll have better ones in the pipeline.

Ford is going a different direction. Accept it. If you don’t like it & miss a V8 that much swap a Chevy crate engine in there they got lots of options lol- OR buy a GM or Ram or Toyota truck.

How tellings is that? TOYOTA offers more V8 options across their truck/SUV/car lineup than Ford. Ford don’t even make a car or SUV w/ a damn V8. This isn’t even really a knock on ford at all, they just decided V8s & cars & body on frame SUVs wasnt the future- I mean how are we even arguing this- their model lineup & future investment into EV charging stations, Rivian, mustang EV, Ford GT EB, & this 600tq hybrid Aviator- all that tells me the V8 platform is of little concern to Ford, & regardless of whether or not they ever do put a V8 in gen3 raptor, WHY the F would I want it when whatever V8 they stick in it will just be a 1/2 ass engineered side piece to their EB/hybrid/EV engineering push.

"Their entire lineup of highest end luxury vehicles offer EB or hybrid EB powertrains, period"
First of all, its not offering, its forcing. If there eb was really that good, they would offer to choose from v8 and eb, but they dont, this alone should tell u something.
They are forcing eb in their f150 limited lineup, top of the line, forcing it there, trying to give eb some recognition and they are trying very hard, good things sell quick, stupid things needs a lot of advertising. and thats what i see..eb did this eb did that eb pulled logs eb towed that bla bla trying trying trying sooooo hard to sell it. i just wonder y?
Their own technicians swear by 5.0, they recommend 5.0. other tech more then 20 say if we have to choose between 3.5 and 5.0, its 5.0 all the way.
Now the rest of your extremely large Atlantic post, we are not comparing brands with brands, just engines between one brand, brand talk is a whole different film, where no one gets 100 out of 100, all have there faults, problems except toyota. i hate their designs, hate there ordinary products, but love the reliability that comes with them, again wont find any brand with 100% satisfaction.
EV s are a fraud though, there i agree, its like cell phones, limited life. seen 100k tesla model s selling for 20k. anything with batteries is just disposable products. The tech is good, but will die once out of warranty because repairs would not be affordable.

 

[jaggwaa]

someone said gt

A 6cyl Pony or muscle car? In this case the engine is the car and those cars history is of the V8. This was simple to answer.

Well raptor started its life with v8, what happened to its history?

 

[EricM]

Back to the original question tho- try to be impartial & answer this for me, pretend the Mustang isn’t made by Ford- pretend it’s a 2 door rear drive Hyundai w/o a drivetrain & rolls into “counting cars” or some shit.

All kinds of motor choices for it- you tell me what you’d rather drop in it, any of the multiple factory V8 options offered by GM/Dodge, OR (esp in gMs case) the dozens of build to suit Chevy crate motors? Or like one of the 2-3 Ford choices? Come on, you’re a “no replacement for displacement guy” right? So no way in hell you put a ****** Ford 5.0 or 5.2 in there? You could go nuts & drop a Chevy ZZ572 in there if it’ll fit? Eh probably not much bigger than the LOL size of the 5.0 & 5.2 Ford makes all heads & covers & needless size.

I’d drop a HO 3.5 EB in it for $8k or whatever it is turn key

Didn't want to skip over this- you are saying you would choose a 3.5L TT V6 over every other engine on the whole planet, correct? If so, you have officially drunk the kool-aid. If I had my choice to stick any engine into a car to make big HP reliably, a twin turbo 4V V6 would never enter my mind as a possibility.

Being completely impartial, if I had to own it and maintain it and I was trying to make it fast, my first choice would be to put the current LT1 small block in there due to it's lightweight and compact size. My next choice would be a 5.0L Ford. If I wanted more power, I'd add a PD blower to either option. If I wanted 4 digit power, I'd put a custom twin turbo setup on one of those choices. The LT1 and Ford 5.0L may be quite different when it comes to the valve configuration, but they are nearly identical in a whole lot of ways too.

I have no confidence in Fiat's engines whatsoever. It's all old-style junk designed 30 years ago still and being dragged forward IMO.

My 3rd choice would be the old-school big block engines. I'd be OK with any of the manufacturers, since it'd all have to be aftermarket. The actual 60s parts are all heavy junk with no flow, but you can do 1000+ HP so easily with modern hipo parts. Use an aluminum block, heads and intake and the weight penalty is low. The cost is very high due to it all being aftermarket, but you can have a huge HP engine that is dead nuts reliable with this route.

 

[GaFFLe]

[QUOTE=""The big breakthrough in batteries is right around the corner."[/QUOTE]

Don't LOLsssss too hard:

 

[K223]

Good little tid bit on Solid State batteries and Goodenough. Charging will have to keep evolving as well. That’s key.

 

[Badgertits]

Didn't want to skip over this- you are saying you would choose a 3.5L TT V6 over every other engine on the whole planet, correct? If so, you have officially drunk the kool-aid. If I had my choice to stick any engine into a car to make big HP reliably, a twin turbo 4V V6 would never enter my mind as a possibility.

Being completely impartial, if I had to own it and maintain it and I was trying to make it fast, my first choice would be to put the current LT1 small block in there due to it's lightweight and compact size. My next choice would be a 5.0L Ford. If I wanted more power, I'd add a PD blower to either option. If I wanted 4 digit power, I'd put a custom twin turbo setup on one of those choices. The LT1 and Ford 5.0L may be quite different when it comes to the valve configuration, but they are nearly identical in a whole lot of ways too.

I have no confidence in Fiat's engines whatsoever. It's all old-style junk designed 30 years ago still and being dragged forward IMO.

My 3rd choice would be the old-school big block engines. I'd be OK with any of the manufacturers, since it'd all have to be aftermarket. The actual 60s parts are all heavy junk with no flow, but you can do 1000+ HP so easily with modern hipo parts. Use an aluminum block, heads and intake and the weight penalty is low. The cost is very high due to it all being aftermarket, but you can have a huge HP engine that is dead nuts reliable with this route.

I dunno if this will explain where I’m coming from better but after 17k miles on my Raptor & now having a GH tune on it, after having MANY V8 vehicles (96 Camaro, 05 GTO, 08 G8 GT, 07 Silverado 5.3, 14 & ‘15 Sierras w/ 5.3 & 6.2, C5 Z06 etc) & routinely crushing mustangs of almost any year (N/A) in the G8/GTO/Camaro over the years (forget about the Z) I was thoroughly impressed by the performance of this engine- & the difference to a standard V8 is refreshing to me. I’ve never been very impressed w/ Ford’s V8s- & if you are honest w/ yourself over the generations of F150 vs Silverado or Camaro vs mustang for instance I really struggle to ever recall a time where Ford had the upper hand in the V8 game.

So if I was going to pick an engine for the mustang based on my previous experience w/ Ford V8s (if you are coming out of a 6.2 GMC & shop it against a 5.0 F150 it’s really no contest - the test drives were forgettable)- I would take this same HO 3.5, I’d be more apt to consider the mustang as a toy/hobby car if it had that engine as an option. The immediate tunability & stump
Pulling TQ are great.

I agree crate engines where it’s at if you’re serious about building a car, driving it hard, & not breaking stuff. Like the ZZ572 donkey **** cammed big block beast of a motor- if you wanna get real nuts on V8 **** check out Nelson Racing Engines- probably who I’d call after hitting the lotto.

I can’t knock the Chrysler stuff b/c they make crazy shit - helps kick everyone else in the ass.

As for Toyota? Said it many times- if you take twice as long toiling over a design that you admittedly cribbed ideas from the competition to build, & then continue to soldier on w/ said design 2-3x as long as your competitors changing basically nothing & just refining out all the quirks - well yeah you should be able to make it reliable. Imagine if GM & Ford just kept producing the 06-07 versions of their trucks & weeding out any/all design flaws? Guess Toyota would be outta biz.

They’re so shook about losing this perceived reliability & losing their rep even after decades of time to come up w/ a “super car” it falls flat on its face, they go to bring back one of their most legendary cars in the Supra, tease it for years ahead of time, & then they can’t even put their own drivetrain in it (hell
Even most of the switchgear) instead they lean HARD on BMW b/c they KNOW they’re way outta the loop on the sturdy boosted 6 market & couldn’t stand to bring the Supra back w/ an engine that could prove to have reliability issues as a brand new design. Tell me- exactly what the F were they toiling over in the Supra’s case all this time? Trying to figure out how to put their $$$ where their mouth was & when push came to shove they KNEW they couldn’t make a similar engine to BMWs 3.0tt w/ the same power & reliability.

Toyota is pathetic IMO. Living on past glory- what have you done for me lately? Have you sat in a GX or LX Lexus? 1998 all over again- GTFOH. Gas mileage?

 

[EricM]

I dunno if this will explain where I’m coming from better but after 17k miles on my Raptor & now having a GH tune on it, after having MANY V8 vehicles (96 Camaro, 05 GTO, 08 G8 GT, 07 Silverado 5.3, 14 & ‘15 Sierras w/ 5.3 & 6.2, C5 Z06 etc) & routinely crushing mustangs of almost any year (N/A) in the G8/GTO/Camaro over the years (forget about the Z) I was thoroughly impressed by the performance of this engine- & the difference to a standard V8 is refreshing to me. I’ve never been very impressed w/ Ford’s V8s- & if you are honest w/ yourself over the generations of F150 vs Silverado or Camaro vs mustang for instance I really struggle to ever recall a time where Ford had the upper hand in the V8 game.

I own a Terminator Mustang. No GM product has ever shown me it's taillights. In fact, the only thing that has ever gotten out on me at the drag strip (that wasn't a big block 9 sec drag car) was a Miata with a S/C 5.0L engine. That ****** out a bus length on me.

That particular Ford V8 had the upper hand for at least five years. If you are honest, you will recall that the 03/04 Cobra Mustangs, typically with a 2.93 upper pulley swap, regularly smacked the shit out of any GM product on the market starting in early 2002, including every variant of Corvette. Twin screw blower swapped Cobras flat out crushed them. 3 years later, the $80K C6 Z06 was still the only thing GM made that could keep up with it. 6 years later, the ZR1 finally dethroned it by finally supercharging their V8 the same way, albeit with a $100K price tag.

Pretty much every manufacturer has now gone with the PD blower on top of a V8 for anything that needs to make big power. ZR1, Hellcats, GT500s... Who started that? Ford. They started it with the 1999 F150 Lightning, which also smoked GM products for years on end. GM still hasn't made a full sized truck that can keep up with a 20 year old Lightning.

"But, but- it's supercharged. If mine was superchraged, then..." Yeah, but it's not, is it?

You clearly have selective memory.