Is it just me? or Does anyone think the Brakes suck..

[foo.c]

If you go with a bigger wheel you could get the Wilwood big brake kit.

 

[BajaFred]

The biggest difference is in emergency stopping, downhill grades, etc. For example, the emergency stop when traffic in front of you comes to a halt all at once and with stock brakes you literally have to turn the wheel to one side to evade the vehicle in front of you due to brake fade and the truck not stopping fast enough. That is 99% cured. Downhill grades: I live in the mountains and with stock brakes there are many hills around me (ie: highway 52 southbound headed into NC) where the stock brake fade is ridiculous when they get warm.

For the average person that is normally very easy on their brakes, the difference in "feel" in daily driving is minimal with minimal brake pedal. But the times when you need them the most or if you are the type (like my wife) who waits to slow down for a stop until the very last second, etc. The difference is phenomenal.

I am a big fan of BBKs, and I know you're in the business of selling gear but you should keep expectations in check

If the OEM brakes are capable of locking the tires (which they are), then you will see no significant improvement in single brake event performance ie your emergency stopping scenario

A BBK could actually be slightly worse in emergency stopping distance if new setup (cheaply made but larger rotors, calipers, etc) weighs more than the OEM setup

Where you will see a difference is in repeated braking ie your mountain and offroad examples

You get BBKs for repeated braking where fade quickly becomes an issue

 

[photoneffect]

I am a big fan of BBKs, and I know you're in the business of selling gear but you should keep expectations in check

If the OEM brakes are capable of locking the tires (which they are), then you will see no significant improvement in single brake event performance ie your emergency stopping scenario

A BBK could actually be slightly worse in emergency stopping distance if new setup (cheaply made but larger rotors, calipers, etc) weighs more than the OEM setup

Where you will see a difference is in repeated braking ie your mountain and offroad examples

You get BBKs for repeated braking where fade quickly becomes an issue

Exactly. He sort of lost some credibility when he started talking about brake fade for a single braking event.

 

[Chris@FreedomMotorsports]

Actually, you are both misunderstanding what I am even promoting. I am not speaking in reference to BBK kits. While I offer them and they have their place, the package that I am promoting is the stock OEM replacement bolt on kit. Not the BBK which costs substantially more.

Also, when I speak of improvement in brake fade, that is real world, not just some marketing hype. I can point to several examples, but the reason brake fade is improved is because when you compare drilled and slotted rotors to stock OEM blanks in general, you improve brake fade, especially on long downhill grades. If you haven't experienced brake fade on a downhill grade then you aren't on a bad grade. However, the casting materials make a big difference as well. When you consider that the stock OEM rotors are cast iron and the R1Concepts Premier series rotors are cast from G3500 rated high carbon metallic blend material and not the industry standard G3000 rated cast iron, they come out ahead because they do not heat up as much, as quickly and they cool faster.

---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------

Ordered.

Did a road trip a couple days ago and really started to notice how bad OE is. Just sucks I have a 2500 mile drive this week and these wont be here before I leave.

I am a big fan of BBKs, and I know you're in the business of selling gear but you should keep expectations in check

If the OEM brakes are capable of locking the tires (which they are), then you will see no significant improvement in single brake event performance ie your emergency stopping scenario

A BBK could actually be slightly worse in emergency stopping distance if new setup (cheaply made but larger rotors, calipers, etc) weighs more than the OEM setup

Where you will see a difference is in repeated braking ie your mountain and offroad examples

You get BBKs for repeated braking where fade quickly becomes an issue

Exactly. He sort of lost some credibility when he started talking about brake fade for a single braking event.

Also, I have personally seen brake fade in a single braking event in emergency stopping many times with stock parts, as have others. It IS possible, it DOES happen, more often than you might think. The R1 package also decreases stopping distance.

 

[BajaFred]

Also, I have personally seen brake fade in a single braking event in emergency stopping many times with stock parts, as have others. It IS possible, it DOES happen, more often than you might think. The R1 package also decreases stopping distance.

Most of this is semantics, right, I looked at the link and saw rotors and pads so the only thing missing from a complete "kit" would be calipers

The point is the same - you're leading people astray if you tell them they will see significantly shorter differences in a single brake event, ie the emergency highway stop - they will not

If OEM brakes can lock tires (true for almost all modern cars), you are no better off on OEM vs $15K Brembo ceramic 6pot BBKs

It's just science - the tires, not the brakes, dictate the distance in this single brake event

To be complete, I'm sure you could come up with a scenario where this is wrong for the single brake event - ie coasting down a 8% grade for 1 minute - but I'm referring to what most of here assume is the situation, a true panic stop like an emergency highway stop or some kid darts in front of you

I'm in complete agreement with you on repeated emergency stops, fade, etc since here, the brakes ability to dissipate heat dictates distance

Do you, or whoever makes the kit, offer a refund and/or guarantee that stopping distances are shorter, or is it in writing anywhere

 

[TRIMMELL]

What are the opinions of the guys that had the OG Gen 1? I didn't really have any complaints with my 14' and I towed with it a bit. Does the Gen 2's brakes feel any different than the Gen 1? The 35" tires are definitely taking away from some of the stopping power if someone is used to a truck with a lighter wheel/tire package. It isn't going to feel like a little 2wd with the 245 series tires.

 

[photoneffect]

Also, when I speak of improvement in brake fade, that is real world, not just some marketing hype. I can point to several examples, but the reason brake fade is improved is because when you compare drilled and slotted rotors to stock OEM blanks in general, you improve brake fade, especially on long downhill grades.

You said brake fade in a single event. That does not make sense. Brake fade down a long downhill grade makes perfect sense. Fade occurs when the the brakes get hot after multiple uses. If you're having problem in single braking events it is not because of fade.

I just think what you said was kind of misleading. While these might be great or even necessary for combating situations where brake fade can be an issue, emergency stopping is not one of them. Kind of really basic stuff here.

More to the point if you can actually prove these stop you faster I think you'd have a ton of customers.

 

[Chris@FreedomMotorsports]

Most of this is semantics, right, I looked at the link and saw rotors and pads so the only thing missing from a complete "kit" would be calipers

The point is the same - you're leading people astray if you tell them they will see significantly shorter differences in a single brake event, ie the emergency highway stop - they will not

If OEM brakes can lock tires (true for almost all modern cars), you are no better off on OEM vs $15K Brembo ceramic 6pot BBKs

It's just science - the tires, not the brakes, dictate the distance in this single brake event

To be complete, I'm sure you could come up with a scenario where this is wrong for the single brake event - ie coasting down a 8% grade for 1 minute - but I'm referring to what most of here assume is the situation, a true panic stop like an emergency highway stop or some kid darts in front of you

I'm in complete agreement with you on repeated emergency stops, fade, etc since here, the brakes ability to dissipate heat dictates distance

Do you, or whoever makes the kit, offer a refund and/or guarantee that stopping distances are shorter, or is it in writing anywhere

First, so many external factors determine whether said guarantee would be even viable. I have personally experienced emergency stop single event brake fade on the highway on more than one occasion. There are no tests that I know of that have compared actual stopping distances when comparing the setup I recommend over the OEM stopping distance. But, I can tell you from my experience and from that of others, that stopping distances are positively affected by the products offered when comparing to OEM parts.

If you want to simply argue semantics, each stopping situation is different. Outside ambient temperature, road conditions, driving style, etc. There are many many factors that contribute to how brakes perform. When I offer that stopping distances are improved, it is from personal experience in more than just a Raptor.

Again, I am not promoting the BBK, just the rotor and pad package as an upgrade over stock. But, I am confident enough in what I say that I will line my 14 Raptor with Cooper 37's up next to any 1st or 2nd GEN Raptor owner with stock size tires and stock brake parts and be willing to bet that my truck stops from 60-0 in less distance. If you want to help make that comparison happen, I am more than willing to get it done.

While tire contact with the road surface is indeed a major factor in determining stopping distance, so is coefficient of friction from the brake parts. When comparing that part of things, the coefficient of friction from the upgraded brake parts is greater than that of the OEM parts because of better materials used and better designed machining. Improving upon the coefficient of friction results from the brake parts themselves contributes to better stopping distances. When taking all other contributing factors out of the equations.

On a side note, from a personal side of things. I have been offering this package to the Raptor community since 2012. Have sold literally hundreds of the same package to members of the forum and have never once been accused of JUST trying to sell something. My recommendations are as they are because I truly believe they are the best possible upgrade for a stock replacement upgrade that does not require purchasing of larger rims, aftermarket calipers, etc. If you WANT other parts or brands, I can offer those as well, with a higher profit margin in most cases.

---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------

You said brake fade in a single event. That does not make sense. Brake fade down a long downhill grade makes perfect sense. Fade occurs when the the brakes get hot after multiple uses. If you're having problem in single braking events it is not because of fade.

I just think what you said was kind of misleading. While these might be great or even necessary for combating situations where brake fade can be an issue, emergency stopping is not one of them. Kind of really basic stuff here.

More to the point if you can actually prove these stop you faster I think you'd have a ton of customers.

Again, I have personally experienced "single event emergency stop brake fade". As have many of my customers who initially contacted me after such events. While they aren't the most common events out there, they do happen and are more than plausible.

 

[photoneffect]

If you want to help make that comparison happen, I am more than willing to get it done.

I am in DE if that's not too far away. Once I actually get my Raptor I would be happy to help with this kind of test if you're interested. I'll have an 802A SCREW so we'd just need another stock 802A SCREW for comparison.

 

[Chris@FreedomMotorsports]

I am in DE if that's not too far away. Once I actually get my Raptor I would be happy to help with this kind of test if you're interested. I'll have an 802A SCREW so we'd just need another stock 802A SCREW for comparison.

I am in Southern Virginia. Mine is a 2014 Screw, so I mine is heavier, but would still be willing to attempt to make it happen. That being said, I have quite a few GEN1 customers closer to you that are running that R1 package and have had a few people from NY and Jersey order the package for their GEN2's. But it would be viable to meet in the middle somewhere to put together a comparison between my GEN1 with upgraded brakes compared to a GEN2 with stock parts when you considering the weight difference being in favor of the GEN2