So Don't Get me Wrong, I love my Raptor, But....

[xrocket21]

Not trying to be a jerk, but have you ever tracked one? A few years ago in Denver we did a track day while I had my M6 (FI). There were Z06's out there, Audi's, almost anythign you could think of. Nothing came close to the performance of the 911 GT's out there. And those were NA engines at 1 mile elevation. I grew a huge amount of appreciation that day for those vehicles.

Just rustlin your jimmies man

Ive never really driven a porsche. Some POS 4 cyl 80s one but that doesnt count lol.

 

[Badgertits]

I'm not trying to be a Porsche snob, but they do make a fine driving automobile. Here is a list of production vehicles Nurburgring times (Where GM tkaes their cars to get best lap times).

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:44.97

Lamborghini Aventador LP770-4 SVJ (2018)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:47.25

Porsche 911 GT2 RS (991.2)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:48.28

Radical SR8 LM

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:52.01

Lamborghini Huracán LP 640-4 Performante (2017)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:55

Radical SR8

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:56.4

Porsche 911 GT3 RS (991.2)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:57

Porsche 918 Spyder

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:59.73

Lamborghini Aventador LP 750-4 Superveloce (2015)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

7:01.3

Dodge Viper ACR (2017)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

7:05.41

Porsche 911 GT3 RS (991.2)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

7:08.679

Nissan GT-R NISMO (2015)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

7:10.92

Mercedes-AMG GT R R (2017)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

7:11.57

Gumpert Apollo Sport

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

7:12.13

Dodge Viper ACR (2010)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

7:12.7

Porsche 911 GT3 (991.2)

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

7:13

Porsche 918 Spyder

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

7:13.90

Chevrolet Corvette C7 Z06



The Corvette comes out 16th on this list behind six Porsche's. I just don't think its fair to say that Vette's, Mustangs, and Camaro's eat them up and spit them out on a routine basis.

Now if we start speaking about value for the dollar, then the Z06 Vette is pretty hard to beat, but that is not what we were talking about.

First of all - you're missing the ZR1, which posted a 7:04 on "cold tires" (supposedly - that's not GM's press release just what I read) which puts it ahead of what is essentially a track only race car in the Viper ACR.

I'm not really sure what showing a list of a handful of the most expensive hardcore race versions of Porsche's cars alongside a handful of exotics & the Viper/Vette does other than hammer my point home?

What is essentially a stripped down brutally harsh riding race car in the GT3 RS - you do realize they have fixed back seats, fabric pull straps for door handles, & the car that put that lap down had the AC/infotainment system was omitted right? You're also aware it costs around $300k min correct? I mean to be "fair" why not put it up against a C7R race car (it would lose) Honestly. So the fact that a ZR1 vette w/ cushy interior, full HVAC & navi leather seats, comfortable riding suspension off track etc. is on the same list is impressive in and of itself. The Z06? I could buy a brand new one today for $70k + ttl, the ZR1 is $120k probably no discounts.

Oh & including a $1 million+ price tag cutting edge EXOTIC (these days anyhow - I think they were like $800-$900k new) is pure comedy lol!!! Again - I find it more embarassing for Porsche that they blew crazy $$$ on designing & marketing a "supercar" that winds up getting crushed by a beefed up version of the same damn design 911 they keep putting out!!!!!!!!! Seriously - put that into perspective

Lastly....nobody's denying Porsche makes great performing cars, but if we're debating the skill/effectiveness of their engineering/design/build teams - $$$$ has to be part of the equation. Call me crazy (or 100000% correct?), but I would argue (rightfully) that the team that brings to market a vehicle that performs within 90-95% of the level of a $300k track-only tooth rattling hotbox w/o a damn radio or door handles OR an $850k over-engineered exotic @ 1/3 or 1/10 the cost as the better team....explain how you see otherwise? OH that's right, my mistake, at some point that $850k exotic was running 9 seconds behind a lowly C7ZR1 or Viper ACR.....

Lastly - this is w/ the current version of GM's own exhausted design of the corvette.....but unlike Porsche they've decided for their bread & butter sports car that "change is good" - and if a RWD, relatively heavy, front engine, SOHC pushrod blown V8 performs like that what do you think the outcome's gonna be for the porsche (and pretty much any other make out there save for extreme exotics/hypercars) when GM finally mic drops the entire industry w/ their mid-engined, potentially AWD (in some forms), dual clutch turbo DOHC C8?

It'll surely be an embarrassing time for your vaunted Porsche engineers.....but at least their factory is clean right?

 

[davidl81]

First of all - you're missing the ZR1, which posted a 7:04 on "cold tires" (supposedly - that's not GM's press release just what I read) which puts it ahead of what is essentially a track only race car in the Viper ACR.

I'm not really sure what showing a list of a handful of the most expensive hardcore race versions of Porsche's cars alongside a handful of exotics & the Viper/Vette does other than hammer my point home?

What is essentially a stripped down brutally harsh riding race car in the GT3 RS - you do realize they have fixed back seats, fabric pull straps for door handles, & the car that put that lap down had the AC/infotainment system was omitted right? You're also aware it costs around $300k min correct? I mean to be "fair" why not put it up against a C7R race car (it would lose) Honestly. So the fact that a ZR1 vette w/ cushy interior, full HVAC & navi leather seats, comfortable riding suspension off track etc. is on the same list is impressive in and of itself. The Z06? I could buy a brand new one today for $70k + ttl, the ZR1 is $120k probably no discounts.

Oh & including a $1 million+ price tag cutting edge EXOTIC (these days anyhow - I think they were like $800-$900k new) is pure comedy lol!!! Again - I find it more embarassing for Porsche that they blew crazy $$$ on designing & marketing a "supercar" that winds up getting crushed by a beefed up version of the same damn design 911 they keep putting out!!!!!!!!! Seriously - put that into perspective

Lastly....nobody's denying Porsche makes great performing cars, but if we're debating the skill/effectiveness of their engineering/design/build teams - $$$$ has to be part of the equation. Call me crazy (or 100000% correct?), but I would argue (rightfully) that the team that brings to market a vehicle that performs within 90-95% of the level of a $300k track-only tooth rattling hotbox w/o a damn radio or door handles OR an $850k over-engineered exotic @ 1/3 or 1/10 the cost as the better team....explain how you see otherwise? OH that's right, my mistake, at some point that $850k exotic was running 9 seconds behind a lowly C7ZR1 or Viper ACR.....

Lastly - this is w/ the current version of GM's own exhausted design of the corvette.....but unlike Porsche they've decided for their bread & butter sports car that "change is good" - and if a RWD, relatively heavy, front engine, SOHC pushrod blown V8 performs like that what do you think the outcome's gonna be for the porsche (and pretty much any other make out there save for extreme exotics/hypercars) when GM finally mic drops the entire industry w/ their mid-engined, potentially AWD (in some forms), dual clutch turbo DOHC C8?

It'll surely be an embarrassing time for your vaunted Porsche engineers.....but at least their factory is clean right?

These are your words:
"Vettes....hell certain mustangs & Camaros eat em up & spit em put on a routine basis."

That sentence is not accurate. As I stated earlier if you look at a cost/performance basis the Vette is a heck of a deal compared to the Porsche (I say this as someone who owned a C6 Z06). But to say that Porsche engineers are no good and that Vette's, Mustangs, and Camaro's eat em up and spit them out is just plain crap and you know that. Would I spend 300k on a Porsche, no, but I would not foolishly say they are not well preforming machines. I would never put a Camaro (even the ZL1) in the same league as the 911 GT3. Just the same way none of us would put a Rebel in the same league as the Raptor. Sure they do things pretty darn close to one another, but the 10% more the Raptor does is were the difference lies.

I am not attacking the Corvette in any way, and I really think the C8 will be a fine machine. I just hate when people put statements out that don't jive with reality. We can say that Porches are expensive and they may not be worth the price, but we cannot say that a Mustang etc whips it on a track.

 

[jaz13]

Just to fan the flames

"Porsche continues its North American race track record tour with a stop in Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin and a small track called Road America. Anyone familiar with this course understands that, by small, we actually mean just over four miles in length. Despite the size, the famous track only boasts 14 corners so as you might expect, it’s a very fast course. In fact, Porsche is reporting that racing veteran David Donohue turned a lap of the 4.04-mile course in just 2:15.17 seconds behind the wheel of a stock, production-spec Porsche 911 GT2 RS. That’s quick enough for the automaker to claim yet another production-car record."

https://www.motor1.com/news/347145/porsche-911-gt2-rs-record/

 

[Badgertits]

These are your words:
"Vettes....hell certain mustangs & Camaros eat em up & spit em put on a routine basis."

That sentence is not accurate. As I stated earlier if you look at a cost/performance basis the Vette is a heck of a deal compared to the Porsche (I say this as someone who owned a C6 Z06). But to say that Porsche engineers are no good and that Vette's, Mustangs, and Camaro's eat em up and spit them out is just plain crap and you know that. Would I spend 300k on a Porsche, no, but I would not foolishly say they are not well preforming machines. I would never put a Camaro (even the ZL1) in the same league as the 911 GT3. Just the same way none of us would put a Rebel in the same league as the Raptor. Sure they do things pretty darn close to one another, but the 10% more the Raptor does is were the difference lies.

I am not attacking the Corvette in any way, and I really think the C8 will be a fine machine. I just hate when people put statements out that don't jive with reality. We can say that Porches are expensive and they may not be worth the price, but we cannot say that a Mustang etc whips it on a track.

I dunno man you’re the one who shows a 7:14 track time for a Porsche 918, and I know a ZR1 has gone 7:04

My point is w/ the Porsche’s that compete w/ a vette or zl1, meaning ANY version that isn’t a bespoke exotic or a ******** race car (the only 2 you listed up there) then yes they definitely get their asses handed. These aren’t lies, they’re facts. All you did was cherry pick the handful of super porsches that cost ridiculous money & couldnt Be taken seriously as a DD.

WHAT you neglected to mention is that a $200k 2018 911 turbo S running a 7:17 is slower than a Z06 or a ******** Camaro ZL1 from the same model year. THOSE are the cars it “competes” with.

How about that a “regular” $145k 911GT3 (non RS) only cuts a 7:12 (there’s a 7:18 listed but they since done better- let’s see how’s much better the ZR1 can do it’s still new) -also same model years- bro, those are facts. Porsche’s cars & emgineers are absolutely getting their asses handed to them lol- Wanna really hammer it home, put a 911s against a base vette gets even sadder.

Only their craziest exotic or most stripped down race car 911 puts up times that threaten those Vettes/ZL1- otherwise yes, it’s a phenomenal ass beating.

Stop being a diehard fanboy & don’t cherry pick your facts. I find it a MUCH More impressive engineering feat that a $60k Camaro outlaps a $200k 911 turbo S on the ‘ring or that a $120k ZR1 flat out obliterates both that 911 turbo S AND their still more costly $145k stripped down race car GT3 non-RS.

THEMs the facts.

 

[Edbert]

FOR the life of me, cannot understand why Porsche is considered “luxury”- high price, well crafted, high end materials....sure, but it ain’t any more “luxurious” than an Acura.

I don't feel the same hate of German cars that you do, but I do feel that way about *** ones so I can relate

The point you make is valid though. Mercedes, BMW, and Audi all make cars that are certainly "luxury cars", but not all cars made by them are. I DD'ed a Dinan tuned 335i for years, the ride was pretty damn harsh (35-series sidewalls with runflats ya know) and the road noise was considerable. If by the term luxury you mean cushy and quiet with a high priority on quality and materials (the way I'd define luxury), then my BMW was not even close. Fit and finish was higher than Ford, materials too but mainly the interior, Ford has always been cheap on interior materials, they look great but there's cheap plastic everywhere. With what I just said I'd still say the Raptor is more luxurious than my 3-series! The ride is smoother and queter by far, but it is considered a "luxury truck" by most people. I call it a sport truck that cleans up well when needed.

TLDR:
I think the mass market & mass media often use the term luxury when they mean expensive.

 

[davidl81]

I dunno man you’re the one who shows a 7:14 track time for a Porsche 918, and I know a ZR1 has gone 7:04

My point is w/ the Porsche’s that compete w/ a vette or zl1, meaning ANY version that isn’t a bespoke exotic or a ******** race car (the only 2 you listed up there) then yes they definitely get their asses handed. These aren’t lies, they’re facts. All you did was cherry pick the handful of super porsches that cost ridiculous money & couldnt Be taken seriously as a DD.

WHAT you neglected to mention is that a $200k 2018 911 turbo S running a 7:17 is slower than a Z06 or a ******** Camaro ZL1 from the same model year. THOSE are the cars it “competes” with.

How about that a “regular” $145k 911GT3 (non RS) only cuts a 7:12 (there’s a 7:18 listed but they since done better- let’s see how’s much better the ZR1 can do it’s still new) -also same model years- bro, those are facts. Porsche’s cars & emgineers are absolutely getting their asses handed to them lol- Wanna really hammer it home, put a 911s against a base vette gets even sadder.

Only their craziest exotic or most stripped down race car 911 puts up times that threaten those Vettes/ZL1- otherwise yes, it’s a phenomenal ass beating.

Stop being a diehard fanboy & don’t cherry pick your facts. I find it a MUCH More impressive engineering feat that a $60k Camaro outlaps a $200k 911 turbo S on the ‘ring or that a $120k ZR1 flat out obliterates both that 911 turbo S AND their still more costly $145k stripped down race car GT3 non-RS.

THEMs the facts.

View attachment 122776

I

I dunno man you’re the one who shows a 7:14 track time for a Porsche 918, and I know a ZR1 has gone 7:04

My point is w/ the Porsche’s that compete w/ a vette or zl1, meaning ANY version that isn’t a bespoke exotic or a ******** race car (the only 2 you listed up there) then yes they definitely get their asses handed. These aren’t lies, they’re facts. All you did was cherry pick the handful of super porsches that cost ridiculous money & couldnt Be taken seriously as a DD.

WHAT you neglected to mention is that a $200k 2018 911 turbo S running a 7:17 is slower than a Z06 or a ******** Camaro ZL1 from the same model year. THOSE are the cars it “competes” with.

How about that a “regular” $145k 911GT3 (non RS) only cuts a 7:12 (there’s a 7:18 listed but they since done better- let’s see how’s much better the ZR1 can do it’s still new) -also same model years- bro, those are facts. Porsche’s cars & emgineers are absolutely getting their asses handed to them lol- Wanna really hammer it home, put a 911s against a base vette gets even sadder.

Only their craziest exotic or most stripped down race car 911 puts up times that threaten those Vettes/ZL1- otherwise yes, it’s a phenomenal ass beating.

Stop being a diehard fanboy & don’t cherry pick your facts. I find it a MUCH More impressive engineering feat that a $60k Camaro outlaps a $200k 911 turbo S on the ‘ring or that a $120k ZR1 flat out obliterates both that 911 turbo S AND their still more costly $145k stripped down race car GT3 non-RS.

THEMs the facts.

View attachment 122776

I like how you screen shot the bottom part of the list that I used for the top part. Look, I don’t know why you are getting so defensive. I never said on a dollar for dollar basis the Porsche is on par with the ZR1 or even the Z06, but your original post said that Mustangs and Vettes eat them up all day long, and that still is not a fact.

And I’m no diehard Porsche fanboy, I just like people who make factual statements, and the GT series 911s out preform the Mustangs and Camaro's (as they should because those cars do not compete with each other). And only the ZR1 Vette is up there with the track Porches. I’m not looking at cost because your first statement did not qualify that the Vette/Mustang was close in performance for far less money. There is no argument there, the Vette (really the Z06) is the best $/performance value of any car on the road IMO.

 

[Edbert]

I
original post said that Mustangs and Vettes eat them up all day long.

I debated about getting in the middle of an internet purse-fight , but my judgement is questionable...

I just wanted to say that when I read that statement I took it to mean modified (probably on the heavy side) Mustangs and Camaros eat Porsches. I also figured that part of the reason was the maturity of the drivers, their willingness to put their lives, freedom, and vehicles into extreme jeopardy, and I say that as the owner of a Mustang that is heavily modified.

 

[Badgertits]

I


I like how you screen shot the bottom part of the list that I used for the top part. Look, I don’t know why you are getting so defensive. I never said on a dollar for dollar basis the Porsche is on par with the ZR1 or even the Z06, but your original post said that Mustangs and Vettes eat them up all day long, and that still is not a fact.

And I’m no diehard Porsche fanboy, I just like people who make factual statements, and the GT series 911s out preform the Mustangs and Camaro's (as they should because those cars do not compete with each other). And only the ZR1 Vette is up there with the track Porches. I’m not looking at cost because your first statement did not qualify that the Vette/Mustang was close in performance for far less money. There is no argument there, the Vette (really the Z06) is the best $/performance value of any car on the road IMO.

What are you talking about??! I just proved to you only the 2 damn quickest specialty Porsche’s ever have posted better times than a ZL1/ZR1/Z06 - I’m not defensive I just don’t like BS being spouted. The whole point is even their very high end models (other than 2 you mention) get whooped by the domestics. Their “regular” $80-$100k 911s get flat out crushed they don’t even have time’s worth talking about.....but a Camaro does ‍

I showed the portion of the list w/ “lesser” Porsche’s like GT3 or GT2 or (I guess if you consider $200k tag & 580hp plebeian) get beat handidly by Vettes & vipers & camaros. You keep pointing toward 2 vehicles that are literally the utmost extremes in terms of price, practicality, & purpose.

You seem unable or unwilling to accept this.

I like Porsche’s- I just think you don’t get what you pay for, I would much prefer a Lexus RCF over a 911 for instance. They’re both getting old in the tooth, but my boss has a 2012 911 4S black edition w/ exhaust/intake some other stuff. I have a cam/intake/headers etc 03 Z06. Both cars ride rough, both have fairly spartan interiors, both are not the most practical DDs, both have been fairly trouble free. THE main difference is his car carries a higher price tag/prestige while mine flat out embarrasses his in every performance category possible. HE would readily admit this- we’d both like To own both cars.

Let’s leave it at this-As far as attaining theirs respective goals - being sports cars (not race cars) that would mean being fast on & off track while not falling apart & being something you can spend time in- Porsche engineers leave a helluva lot to be desired in terms of achieving that goal against significantly cheaper while equally reliable competitors. But as a Porsche guy- it’ll come back to their clean factory or panel gaps, it’s like when Duramax owners would get butthurt over a Cummins out towing them & point out the “cheap interior “ (not anymore tho)- yet at the end of the day their both meant for the same purpose- pulling heavy shit.

 

[davidl81]

I debated about getting in the middle of an internet purse-fight , but my judgement is questionable...

I just wanted to say that when I read that statement I took it to mean modified (probably on the heavy side) Mustangs and Camaros eat Porsches. I also figured that part of the reason was the maturity of the drivers, their willingness to put their lives, freedom, and vehicles into extreme jeopardy, and I say that as the owner of a Mustang that is heavily modified.

That is fair. If you take a Mustang and heavily mod it I’m sure it could beat those Porches. To a large extent that’s what you are getting with the GTs since they do strip out a lot of things to make them basically track cars. I took the statement to mean stock versus stock, but I may have misread it.