GEN 2 Burger Tuning Stage 1 Piggyback

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kpg81

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You and your buddies love to be cute on this forum... :mwah1:

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------



I hope some of these lames are getting a check from Whipple as hard as they nut swing.

No we can tell when some horse shit is being pumped on the board. When a product is good, you don't need to pay anyone to pump it. You guys just know Whipple is the real deal and you are trying to talk up your product and say some lame ass piggy back box you bought in China and private labeled it is better than a full on hardware and tuning package.

**** outta here with that shit
 

FORZDA 1

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In one post you sound positive about the thing, and then in this you make it sound like any customer that buys it is an idiot. I'm confused.

I'm not positive about the "thing" at all. I was pointing out the fact that it isn't "traceable" to quell the incorrect information. I also didn't say buyers were idiots either. I pointed out that the piggyback devices are antiques suitable for quaint conversation about how they were the only device available just a relative few years ago. I see that you can easily be confused though. No worries though, just let others do the actual tuning and you'll be fine.
 

FORZDA 1

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Ok, I’m open to the concept you know more about this.

Prove it.

It's impossible to quickly prove something to someone who doesn't even understand the basic concepts of the subject. Just take some time and do some research on ECU spoofing by altering the sensor inputs. It is really a very basic concept. I will say this much below and maybe you can take it from here and go in the right direction.

The whole point of any piggyback is to modify the input information to the ECU so it will perform the normal programmed routines without ever knowing it has been spoofed. It does NOT have the capability to alter the ECU code/programming at all. It IS possible for the piggyback tune to alter the sensor input to the point that the ECU triggers a fault or otherwise does not play well with the ECU programming. This happens when the tuner tries too hard to reach into the deeper levels of the ECU in a desperate attempt to compete with flash tuning at the ECU programming level.

Piggybacks are a very top-level tuning device only able to affect basic inputs like the timing, manifold pressure, and on older port-only injection engines, the injector pulse-width for AFR control. Newer direct injected engines have such a short window for injection that a piggyback just isn't fast enough to alter the pulse-wide effectively for "reliable" control. This is one reason why they aren't as effective on the latest electronic engine controls designs.

They (piggybacks) had their vital place in the evolution of aftermarket tuning, but were wholly bypassed about a decade ago. Those folks still trying to market them are a dying entity because they can't compete at current levels of engine control technology.

This still doesn't dispel the fact that they can't be detected UNLESS the tuner tries too hard and sets a fault in the ECU, which is a recorded event. I would expect the tuner to set many faults in their initial dyno quest to create workable tuning parameters as they learn the ECU.

A tuner using a piggyback, but having access and knowledge of the ECU code can come up with an effective tune file for simply "more power", but unless they alter the actual Load/Torque/Throttle lookup tables (and there are many) within the ECU, they're limited in how much additional power they can safely and reliably extract from the engine/ECU combo.

Hope this gets you started on the way to enlightenment so that ECU tuning is not some black art, but a systematic, well-defined process. If all else fails, just try a google search and start on reading the technical papers, not forum posts.
 

Guy

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Whoa.

You use biggem fancy words!

News flash. I know exactly how a piggyback tuner works. If you like, we can discuss how it modulates amplitude and frequency and voltage to modify a sensor reading, but I think it would be mundane.

Unfortunately technology has passed YOU by as well. If you think an ECU fault is the only thing that is recorded you’re back in 1995. Not only can modern ECU record small data logs, in particular, when there is a discrepancy between items such as expected boost and actual recorded boost.
Sure the ECU programming isn’t altered, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t recording the readings that are changed downstream.

This has been a Known entity at BMW for a long time. In fact, most dealers will download the logs during routine service appointments and if they capture evidence of a piggyback tuner they will save it to void your power train warranty later.

Ford’s own proprietary software for reading and extracting data from the ECU is beyond anything you can play with in your basement.

Just because YOU think they can’t see the sensor data was manipulated doesn’t, in fact, mean they can’t see it.

You shouldn’t spread your conjecture as fact.
 

Fender

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I tried their stage 1 on the bmw n54 platform and it was somewhat primitive, similar drive to the afe piggyback. Their jb4 was somewhat better, got nothing on a real flash though
 

FORZDA 1

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You shouldn’t spread your conjecture as fact.


I’m not spreading conjecture as I actually do the data diagnostics. I’ll let you believe the magic and move on though. You’ve convinced yourself, so that’s all that matters. You don’t know what you don’t know. Enjoy your ignorance as we all know that “ignorance is bliss”.
 

Sitdown

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:supergay:

So crazy how we get so worked up over justifying our purchases... take a step back and chill out appreciate new products coming to market, whether they are step back or forward.

As for Terry@Burger, I had years of working with him and my JB3 & JB4 tuned 335. Awesome guy, and way cool stuff he was doing back then with some dated hardware(that still remains dated, but still works too). Like many ppl, we started with his JB+, which was a more basic version of his stg1 offered on later/other platforms. Is this raptor option anything sophisticated, or drastically different than the delta boost, scorcher, max etc etc... no, probably not. Would i run this after having experienced a good flash tune, hell no. But a nice toe in the water approach for ppl on the fence, and if he ever did release something similar to his JB4, id totally be open to look into it and try it out given my experience with him

No reason to start lynching each other, the more options we have the better whether you like them or not
 

smurfslayer

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@FORZDA 1

No, we have plenty of time to have the great unwashed educated, so by all means, proceed.

This still doesn't dispel the fact that they can't be detected UNLESS the tuner tries too hard and sets a fault in the ECU, which is a recorded event. I would expect the tuner to set many faults in their initial dyno quest to create workable tuning parameters as they learn the ECU.

Yes, without a doubt, I want to hear more and I’m sure at least @Guy does too.

So go right ahead.
 
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