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Ford F-150 Raptor General Discussions [GEN 3]
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<blockquote data-quote="rfc805" data-source="post: 1824426" data-attributes="member: 62787"><p>There's so much wrong in what you just said it's hard to even begin.</p><p></p><p>Let's focus on efficiency though, because your own points on efficiency and energy density are important to understanding with using electric drivelines is important.</p><p></p><p>You mention lithium is 1/10th the energy density of petroleum. I'm not exactly sure how you're working out that comparison, as we don't combust lithium to release energy, but, let's take your statements as truth!</p><p></p><p>ICE have a theoretical max efficiency in the 30%s. Most in practice are in the low-mid 20%. Electric motors are reasonably close to 100% efficient, but for the sake of argument let's say 90%.</p><p></p><p>So even if we continue to use petroleum for an energy source, let's look at that.</p><p></p><p>1L of 87 Octane contains 32 MJ of energy.</p><p></p><p>ICE using it directly in a vehicle will utilize about 8MJ of the 32MJ potential (25%, which is pretty good, the Raptor is likely worse than that).</p><p></p><p>If we instead use that in a larger scale efficient power plant, we can get about 55-60% efficiency from the same fuel. So instead of 8MJ, we extract about 17MJ. This is important, because in a power plant, we have the possibility to continue to improve at capturing waste heat and pushing this efficiency up. In a vehicle, we just don't have the same capability to do so.</p><p></p><p>Delivery/transmission/etc sap some of that, so we're down to about 14MJ of it delivered to the endpoint.</p><p></p><p>Then you use an electric driveline, and you end up with about 12MJ from the same 1L of gasoline that you could only get 8MJ from when directly used in an ICE.</p><p></p><p>We are about 10 years into commercial iteration on these drivelines at this point, versus over 100 for ICE. It's going to improve further, and the end result is that we can stop wasting 70% of the energy that is contained in that petroleum. It's important. It's not all about replacement, it's about waste. The production efficiencies are at worst even today, and will continue to get better. Eventually, they're going to tilt sharply in favor of electric systems.</p><p></p><p>Lithium batteries in current EVs have at least a 1000 charge cycle life. So as to something indicating they consume more petroleum to create than they can offset, I don't see how that can even be within orders of magnitude true.</p><p></p><p>As to the lithium ending up at the bottom of the ocean, why would you do that? Lithium is is an element. It doesn't get "used up". It's still lithium, unless somehow you change it into a different element - but that's not going on. It isn't like combustion fuels where after you use it, it's gone, broken down into different compounds. An entire industry will be formed around this, similar to what exists for lead acid batteries today. We're just very early on in the process, but it's not hard to look at history and see where it will go from similar other industries that are more mature.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="rfc805, post: 1824426, member: 62787"] There's so much wrong in what you just said it's hard to even begin. Let's focus on efficiency though, because your own points on efficiency and energy density are important to understanding with using electric drivelines is important. You mention lithium is 1/10th the energy density of petroleum. I'm not exactly sure how you're working out that comparison, as we don't combust lithium to release energy, but, let's take your statements as truth! ICE have a theoretical max efficiency in the 30%s. Most in practice are in the low-mid 20%. Electric motors are reasonably close to 100% efficient, but for the sake of argument let's say 90%. So even if we continue to use petroleum for an energy source, let's look at that. 1L of 87 Octane contains 32 MJ of energy. ICE using it directly in a vehicle will utilize about 8MJ of the 32MJ potential (25%, which is pretty good, the Raptor is likely worse than that). If we instead use that in a larger scale efficient power plant, we can get about 55-60% efficiency from the same fuel. So instead of 8MJ, we extract about 17MJ. This is important, because in a power plant, we have the possibility to continue to improve at capturing waste heat and pushing this efficiency up. In a vehicle, we just don't have the same capability to do so. Delivery/transmission/etc sap some of that, so we're down to about 14MJ of it delivered to the endpoint. Then you use an electric driveline, and you end up with about 12MJ from the same 1L of gasoline that you could only get 8MJ from when directly used in an ICE. We are about 10 years into commercial iteration on these drivelines at this point, versus over 100 for ICE. It's going to improve further, and the end result is that we can stop wasting 70% of the energy that is contained in that petroleum. It's important. It's not all about replacement, it's about waste. The production efficiencies are at worst even today, and will continue to get better. Eventually, they're going to tilt sharply in favor of electric systems. Lithium batteries in current EVs have at least a 1000 charge cycle life. So as to something indicating they consume more petroleum to create than they can offset, I don't see how that can even be within orders of magnitude true. As to the lithium ending up at the bottom of the ocean, why would you do that? Lithium is is an element. It doesn't get "used up". It's still lithium, unless somehow you change it into a different element - but that's not going on. It isn't like combustion fuels where after you use it, it's gone, broken down into different compounds. An entire industry will be formed around this, similar to what exists for lead acid batteries today. We're just very early on in the process, but it's not hard to look at history and see where it will go from similar other industries that are more mature. [/QUOTE]
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