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GEN 2 (2017-2020) Ford F-150 Raptor Forums
Ford F-150 Raptor General Discussions [GEN 2]
Cam phasers?
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<blockquote data-quote="WraptorBoy" data-source="post: 1578207" data-attributes="member: 33804"><p>I'm concerned because I understand how cam phasers work. We can agree to disagree that this is a binary issue. I believe a phaser can start to fail and eventually fully fail. If the rotor is not locked at startup (hence the noise) you will hear it rattle quietly. The rattle will vibrate nearby parts and over time cause other minor local failures due to the slapping back and forth, which wasn't intended, nor it's consequences. On my truck I hear the rattle, just a much more scaled down version of it. Others have said the same thing on their trucks, then some said they got the failure a year later. My assumption: I hear the noise, albeit quiet, which means that the inner rotor is not locking at startup. 2 seconds of diesel sound but quieter. Eventually (years?) it will quietly rattle and rattle and over time cause more local issues leading to the pin breaking, then the final failure. I love the truck but I just can't trust it... but I want to which is why I still have it.</p><p></p><p>In ANY case, the inner rotor will move from within it's spectrum of movement, right? If it's locked, which it should be if the pin is working, there will be ZERO movement at startup. No rattle noise. If it's not locked, then oil pressure exists, has displaced the pin, unlocking the rotor and again, ZERO movement and ZERO rattle noise because the oil pressure in the galley has pushed the rotor to one respective end (emissions or power bias) of its spectrum. Right? There is also a coiled spring that loads the rotor on the other side. Hence, it's impossible for ANY rattle to be heard if all parts are functioning correctly. Impossible. So the likely explanation is the pin breaks, which causes the rotor to slap back and forth until there is oil pressure. Right? While you keep saying these are normal startup noises, I disagree again. I have a Lexus that uses essentially the same phasing tech: pin, oil pressure and all. Zero start up noise. As I mentioned, there is nothing new about this tech. It's been out for at least 30 years. Then why have I and others hears the same <u>exact</u> rattle noise just really quiet? Same noise. Same length of time. Two explanations: they're faulty and will eventually fail in 20K miles or it's normal. Since pretty much every engine made has variable cam timing since the 90s, that also uses cam phasing just like the Ford's, why is it I've never heard this issue on any other engine except when it's failed or about to. I've had Chevy, Ford, Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Dodge. They all use variable cam timing and most of them the same exact design as our Fords. So, I can't say it's normal even though it's a quiet rattle. Oh and Audi (I think) has issues too but they recalled theirs.</p><p></p><p>I don't think people are normally putting their ear up to the engine when starting up, cold. I did because I wanted to make sure I didn't have the issue. I do have the (quieter) rattle noise. But, we can agree to disagree on this. </p><p></p><p>I mostly agree with you... at this time. I don't have any issues (except the new ticking I now have for 2 minutes at cold startup). But, in 30K miles, if I have the full blown issue, do you want me to say "I told you so"?</p><p></p><p>Besides, I was just addressing the OP's concern of his noise not being the cam issue. AND you said the builders didn't get the new parts of the new design until end of 2019 which means my engine probably has the same parts as all others the years before it. I can't imagine Ford built my Raptor engine when I ordered it. It's more likely they have some crated on the shelf waiting to be installed. More reasoning that supports I likely have the old phaser design. Nothing abnormal though.</p><p></p><p>I'm not trying to be an ahole. I love the truck. I'm just trying to dissect the rattle noise(s) I have or I can't keep it. I've had people work on vehicles and they mostly make stuff worse. That's the REAL issue you know. If all mechs were excellent, issues wouldn't matter. Drop it off, they fix it, back in business.</p><p></p><p>So, I walked up to the front of mine and had my phone prob 6 inches from the grill then remote started it. I can hear the soft rattle from across the room now though because I know it's there.</p><p></p><p>I'll tell you what. Post a link with a normal, cold soaked raptor engine (say 24 hours) that does <u>not</u> have the issue. If I also hear a faint rattle, just like mine, then I will concede and consider it normal and not worry as much. </p><p></p><p>Deal?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="WraptorBoy, post: 1578207, member: 33804"] I'm concerned because I understand how cam phasers work. We can agree to disagree that this is a binary issue. I believe a phaser can start to fail and eventually fully fail. If the rotor is not locked at startup (hence the noise) you will hear it rattle quietly. The rattle will vibrate nearby parts and over time cause other minor local failures due to the slapping back and forth, which wasn't intended, nor it's consequences. On my truck I hear the rattle, just a much more scaled down version of it. Others have said the same thing on their trucks, then some said they got the failure a year later. My assumption: I hear the noise, albeit quiet, which means that the inner rotor is not locking at startup. 2 seconds of diesel sound but quieter. Eventually (years?) it will quietly rattle and rattle and over time cause more local issues leading to the pin breaking, then the final failure. I love the truck but I just can't trust it... but I want to which is why I still have it. In ANY case, the inner rotor will move from within it's spectrum of movement, right? If it's locked, which it should be if the pin is working, there will be ZERO movement at startup. No rattle noise. If it's not locked, then oil pressure exists, has displaced the pin, unlocking the rotor and again, ZERO movement and ZERO rattle noise because the oil pressure in the galley has pushed the rotor to one respective end (emissions or power bias) of its spectrum. Right? There is also a coiled spring that loads the rotor on the other side. Hence, it's impossible for ANY rattle to be heard if all parts are functioning correctly. Impossible. So the likely explanation is the pin breaks, which causes the rotor to slap back and forth until there is oil pressure. Right? While you keep saying these are normal startup noises, I disagree again. I have a Lexus that uses essentially the same phasing tech: pin, oil pressure and all. Zero start up noise. As I mentioned, there is nothing new about this tech. It's been out for at least 30 years. Then why have I and others hears the same [U]exact[/U] rattle noise just really quiet? Same noise. Same length of time. Two explanations: they're faulty and will eventually fail in 20K miles or it's normal. Since pretty much every engine made has variable cam timing since the 90s, that also uses cam phasing just like the Ford's, why is it I've never heard this issue on any other engine except when it's failed or about to. I've had Chevy, Ford, Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Dodge. They all use variable cam timing and most of them the same exact design as our Fords. So, I can't say it's normal even though it's a quiet rattle. Oh and Audi (I think) has issues too but they recalled theirs. I don't think people are normally putting their ear up to the engine when starting up, cold. I did because I wanted to make sure I didn't have the issue. I do have the (quieter) rattle noise. But, we can agree to disagree on this. I mostly agree with you... at this time. I don't have any issues (except the new ticking I now have for 2 minutes at cold startup). But, in 30K miles, if I have the full blown issue, do you want me to say "I told you so"? Besides, I was just addressing the OP's concern of his noise not being the cam issue. AND you said the builders didn't get the new parts of the new design until end of 2019 which means my engine probably has the same parts as all others the years before it. I can't imagine Ford built my Raptor engine when I ordered it. It's more likely they have some crated on the shelf waiting to be installed. More reasoning that supports I likely have the old phaser design. Nothing abnormal though. I'm not trying to be an ahole. I love the truck. I'm just trying to dissect the rattle noise(s) I have or I can't keep it. I've had people work on vehicles and they mostly make stuff worse. That's the REAL issue you know. If all mechs were excellent, issues wouldn't matter. Drop it off, they fix it, back in business. So, I walked up to the front of mine and had my phone prob 6 inches from the grill then remote started it. I can hear the soft rattle from across the room now though because I know it's there. I'll tell you what. Post a link with a normal, cold soaked raptor engine (say 24 hours) that does [U]not[/U] have the issue. If I also hear a faint rattle, just like mine, then I will concede and consider it normal and not worry as much. Deal? [/QUOTE]
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GEN 2 (2017-2020) Ford F-150 Raptor Forums
Ford F-150 Raptor General Discussions [GEN 2]
Cam phasers?
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