Prospective Buyer - need some advice

[FordTechOne]

"VCT duty cycle is controlled by the PCM calibration. Even if the new calibration required a change to the oil pump strategy for additional volume to support a higher phaser duty cycle, it’s still completely unrelated to the root cause."

Im not the one double backing, a vct is a mechanical part controlled by VCT Oil Control Solenoids with yes signals from the PCM. 21b10 changes oil pressure to the VCT, so yes even if. And to state that there will always be noise if "any" wear is present to that locking cavity is about as retarded of a postion as the old style vct wants to be in. everything ive said about the 11/2019 builds with the updated phasers is true, its superior hence why even you said FORD doesnt offer those junk phasers anymore.

So since you’re so confident that worn VCTs won’t make noise, where is your evidence? I have pulled them apart and seen that even the slightest wear causes significant noise on cold start. This is because the vanes contact the outer housing due to the cavity being elongated and tapered. You are once again speculating without any proof to back it up.

You’ve made multiple false claims throughout this thread; to state that everything you’ve said is “true” is comical at this point.

Obviously you also don’t understand parts supersession either, manufacturers don’t offer 2 versions of the same part. CD replaced CC and they’re backward compatible. Disassembling both you will find that everything is visually identical with the exception being the design change to the locking pin cavity.

 

[duff49]

So since you’re so confident that worn VCTs won’t make noise, where is your evidence? I have pulled them apart and seen that even the slightest wear causes significant noise on cold start. This is because the vanes contact the outer housing due to the cavity being elongated and tapered. You are once again speculating without any proof to back it up.

You’ve made multiple false claims throughout this thread; to state that everything you’ve said is “true” is comical at this point.

Obviously you also don’t understand parts supersession either, manufacturers don’t offer 2 versions of the same part. CD replaced CC and they’re backward compatible. Disassembling both you will find that everything is visually identical with the exception being the design change to the locking pin cavity.

you literally are the definition of backtracking and circling lol, "with the exception being the design change to the locking pin cavity", literally makes the parts different. There was also a design change along the way with the cover over the mechanical spring. your right even though its not the same its the same. i think you just like to tell yourself your right even when you know you wrong. If you think a the two or identical then so be it you believe what you want. it just verifies to me that you are to stuck in your beliefs and prideful to be wrong. you have provided no data to your claim that it will make noise even with little wear to the cavity. wear is wear and there WAS a confirmed issue with the old style "identical in your mind" part that ford had to band aid. end of story sticking with my recommendation to get a 11/2019 or later build to not have to deal with the phaser ford has had to fix with what you call the identical backwards compatible part. lol what a joke.

 

[FordTechOne]

you literally are the definition of backtracking and circling lol, "with the exception being the design change to the locking pin cavity", literally makes the parts different. There was also a design change along the way with the cover over the mechanical spring. your right even though its not the same its the same. i think you just like to tell yourself your right even when you know you wrong. If you think a the two or identical then so be it you believe what you want. it just verifies to me that you are to stuck in your beliefs and prideful to be wrong. you have provided no data to your claim that it will make noise even with little wear to the cavity. wear is wear and there WAS a confirmed issue with the old style "identical in your mind" part that ford had to band aid. end of story sticking with my recommendation to get a 11/2019 or later build to not have to deal with the phaser ford has had to fix with what you call the identical backwards compatible part. lol what a joke.

Your recommendation means nothing because you know nothing about the issue or how the system even works. You continue to post incorrect information while speculating about failure modes you don’t even understand. You dug up an old bulletin to try and prove a non-existent point regarding a procedure to check for damage to the cam journals. You’re only embarrassing yourself at this point, you keep saying say I’m “wrong” but have zero data to support your little theories.

You keep claiming the FSA is a “band aid” because you don’t understand why the issue was happening. When you take a worn phaser apart (something you have no experience with) you can see where the phaser was being duty cycled in the area near base timing/lock, causing tapered wear at the locking pin cavity. This is the reason that the 21B10 calibration is not “reversed” when new parts are installed as you baselessly claimed, and the same strategy was implemented in production 11/19.

As far as the cover over the return spring, that was with the 2021 ML3Z-A part release, not the replacement HL3Z-CD part specified in the TSB. Stop googling to try and support your conspiracy theories.

 

[duff49]

Your recommendation means nothing because you know nothing about the issue or how the system even works. You continue to post incorrect information while speculating about failure modes you don’t even understand. You dug up an old bulletin to try and prove a non-existent point regarding a procedure to check for damage to the cam journals. You’re only embarrassing yourself at this point, you keep saying say I’m “wrong” but have zero data to support your little theories.

You keep claiming the FSA is a “band aid” because you don’t understand why the issue was happening. When you take a worn phaser apart (something you have no experience with) you can see where the phaser was being duty cycled in the area near base timing/lock, causing tapered wear at the locking pin cavity. This is the reason that the 21B10 calibration is not “reversed” when new parts are installed as you baselessly claimed, and the same strategy was implemented in production 11/19.

As far as the cover over the return spring, that was with the 2021 ML3Z-A part release, not the replacement HL3Z-CD part specified in the TSB. Stop googling to try and support your conspiracy theories.

I’m not googling anything and you assume I have no experience… I can show you phasers I’ve replaced for trucks out of warranty, compared to the new part if you would like. Funny how you just said incorrect info again for everyone, my personal truck number 1/2020 has the phasers with the covered mechanical springs I can get the part numbers if you would like as I’m not the one googling I believe you are. At this point my recommendation to anyone is to keep there stuff out of your bay. And for ford to put you on the wash bay.

 

[smurfslayer]

@Jwod1993 Apologies for the thread-jack. If you still have questions or want to discuss Raptors further, probably best to open a new thread.

 

[FordTechOne]

I’m not googling anything and you assume I have no experience… I can show you phasers I’ve replaced for trucks out of warranty, compared to the new part if you would like. Funny how you just said incorrect info again for everyone, my personal truck number 1/2020 has the phasers with the covered mechanical springs I can get the part numbers if you would like as I’m not the one googling I believe you are. At this point my recommendation to anyone is to keep there stuff out of your bay. And for ford to put you on the wash bay.

You’re posts show you have no experience with this concern. No need to assume anything. At this point my recommendation is for you to stop posting and let it go. As @smurfslayer said, this thread has been derailed badly enough.

 

[KAH 24]

To the OP @Jwod1993

Professionally I am in a senior operations role with a major OEM with significant experience in mechanical engineering. I see every aspect of data imaginable and am fortunate to have colleagues far brighter than I.

Most relevant is, I am not biased in favor for/against the Raptor—as I see things empirically.

@FordTechOne is 100% correct (and we’ve disagreed before over semantics). The Duff (he/she/they/etc) is a troll whose knowledge is non-existent, speculative, and is arguing just to get a rise out of people. This is why I don’t get sucked into that waste of time/space.

Facts:

1. @FordTechOne is correct in that the operation and maintenance history of the Raptor (or any vehicle you buy) is the most important parameter. I’d buy a well maintained 100% stock 2017 vs a neglected/beaten on 2019-2020 in a minute.

2. The 2017–2020 is reliable given the sheer numbers sold. Heck the F150 is a vehicle we’ve benchmarked for years and have tremendous respect for. That’s one reason I drive an 2018 Raptor with 57k miles (that I maintain religiously).

3. The fail rate of cam phasers is magnified in our minds because we only see the posts from those who’ve had problems vs. the majority that don’t. I applaud Ford for staying ahead of the issue. The entire industry has been watching Ford closely (just as the industry watches us closely). Get TSBs performed and if there is a recall, do it per OEM guidance.

4. Regarding cam phasers (and variable valve timing systems in general)—full synthetic oil changes and ensuring the oil is full is important. I check the oil on my entire family fleet of vehicles (newer and vintage) weekly as PMCS. Do that and you’ll be way ahead of the curve and sleep better at night.

4. OEMs introduce updated parts constantly and often purchase from multiple suppliers. The updated part isn’t necessarily “better”. In many cases, it wouldn’t matter one iota if the part replaced was the “older part” vs the “rolling updated part.” In my view, my company has had issues with certain batch numberr/manufacturing lots or sometimes when we change vendors. A lot goes on that I could write a book about.

5. Every OEM corporate culture is different. Mine makes changes slowly and that works in the market sandbox in which we compete. Ford, GM, and Ram make changes constantly—and are probably making some even as I type this. Some companies handle issues quickly while others drag their feet. For a company that cranks out the volume that Ford does and makes changes as rapidly—I tip my hat to Ford.

I hope you find the Raptor of your dreams. My recommendation is that you try to do as much research as possible on the maintenance/usage history of a Raptor and avoid modified ones. I wish you the best in what can be a frustrating and time consuming process.

Hope this helps somewhat.