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full-race geoff

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been a busy couple of weeks getting ready for black friday and all the sema madness... small update:


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Front Diff is re-geared to 4.88 with Yukon gears and install kit + Ford Performance Torsen. I have always preferred more gear to less.. especially on a turbo engine which needs all the help it can get down low. I kept my oem raptor 4.10 front axle as a spare and bought a copart 5.0L front diff, pulled from a truck with 90k miles that was rear ended. Upon disassembly there was only usual wear, nothing concerning and was confident everything looked good to assemble

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Installing front gears can be more challenging than rear gears because you'll want to use a case spreader. Without the spreader you will need a prybar and some cuss words, likely to mangle things trying to get them in and out

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One thing I forgot to get a picture of is the crush collar process. It’s a really good idea to give this thing a headstart in the press - teeny amount of crush before it goes in the diff gets things started really nicely before cranking on your new pinion. I will begin to play with gussets at the weak points and am working on a simple heim-joint diff brace. will wrap that up next

There is nothing wrong with the vane style oil pump. Its actually how a lot of hydraulic pumps, including power steering pumps, are built. They can flow a lot with very high pressures (3000-4000psi) and are highly reliable as long as the fluid they are pumping stays (relatively) clean (power steering pumps fail because no one ever changes that fluid).

The issues arise with the variable geometry/pressure system. A lot of manufacturers have moved to that and of course the 1st generation of anything has it's issues. BMW for example, their oil pumps are fully variable, as opposed to Ford's more simple hi/lo only system, and BMW had issues with the variable oil pump in the Gen1 B58's. For the hi/lo switchover in our trucks, you can go into the tune and change when the pump switches over. In HPTuner it's a (IIRC) 3D table with RPM and load on the axis. I never bothered to mess with it other trying to see if the Ford tuned it to be basically on/off, but it was actaully a PWM output so I could get the oil pressure up a bit for cruise. It's not a PWM output on the ECU so we're stuck with on/off, so I left the table the stock becuase I got oil pressure codes when trying to adjust the target and the "duty cycle" to an "in the middle" value.

So, I would not hesitate to run the vane pump with the variable displacement stuff disabled/locked out.

to be clear - I believe 3.5L oil pumps are fine to 600+hp. It's at the 700+ level where I'm targetting for reliable operation that weaknesses start to emerge. that's why I believe it's an issue beyond just locking out the low pressure mode.

we have a good amount of experience with B58 and S58, and compared to the 58s the ecoboost platform is just not pushed that hard (yet). From the "racecar perspective" there are (2) 3,5L EcoBoosts I know of in the 9sec 1/4 mile range and I help both of them, Ive not seen anyone else push the 3.5L platform as hard as they do. The one guy Jake who runs 9.90's oil pressure is around 20psi during a launch (this is too low). And the other guy Carsen's oil pressure on the most recent pass dropped to 10psi on launch! this is possibly due to the oil pump's case flexing and allowing oil pressure to bypass through the low-pressure-crescent mechanism. Either way it's low compared to high HP gen1 guys that maintain 45psi oil pressure at launch on a gerotor


Why can't you just lockout the solenoid? So it constantly runs on high? Haven't heard of oil pumps failing much.
absolutely can do that. plugging in a dummy solenoid may do the same thing (will try when i have some time to waste). of course it does not address the mechanical liabilities

I read that the 7.3 Godzilla has a 2-stage oil pressure setup, but is analog. No electronic solenoid.
my industry friend Paul Svinicki has a 7.3L godzilla with 146 passes at the 1200hp level, changing spark plugs and oil. 14+ race weekends. Using OEM ford rings, bearings, head gaskets, bolts, crank and block. Upgraded pistons and rods, with heavy effort spent on timing chain and oil pump. As he says "getting rid of the cast powder metal bullsh1t"

cough cough Raptor R engine cough
hey eric, love your posts. what are you saying/coughing about the R oil pumps? Raptor R is badass, no doubt and they also can use oil pump upgrades - boundary has a great solution: https://boundarypumps.com/product-category/ford/5-2l-predator/ hopefully they can get something sorted for the Gen2 (i've been asking them for it!!)
 
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letsgetthisdone

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to be clear - I believe 3.5L oil pumps are fine to 600+hp. It's at the 700+ level where I'm targetting for reliable operation where weaknesses start to emerge. The ecoboost pump is just like the coyote, the same weaknesses show up that's why I believe it's an issue beyond just locking out the low pressure mode.

we have a good amount of experience with B58 and S58, and compared to the 58s the ecoboost platform is just not pushed that hard (yet). From the "racecar perspective" there are (2) 3,5L EcoBoosts I know of in the 9sec 1/4 mile range and I help both of them, Ive not seen anyone else push the 3.5L platform as hard as they do. The one guy Jake who runs 9.90's oil pressure is around 20psi during a launch (this is too low). And the other guy Carsen's oil pressure on the most recent pass dropped to 10psi on launch! this is possibly due to the oil pump's case flexing and allowing oil pressure to bypass through the low-pressure-crescent mechanism. Either way it's low compared to high HP gen1 guys that maintain 45psi oil pressure at launch on a gerotor

An easy test would bt to put a fixed volume pump in and see if the issue persists.

If they're running a stock oil pan, my money is on oil starvation though. Draining the pan on the 2 step, then what little oil is left in there sloshes away from the pick up under the high G load of the launch
 
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full-race geoff

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I got ahead of myself test fitting the gen1 pump on bare blocks… thought it was easy, turns out I was wrong. the gen 1 fixed volume pump physically bolts up but, it’s not 100% because it’s missing the dowel needed for the gen2/3 fitment. I will get it figured out and tested.

And fyi - these trucks run way overfilled oil for exactly the reasons you highlighted. Same page with ya on all that
 

Zeusmotorworks

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I got ahead of myself test fitting the gen1 pump on bare blocks… thought it was easy, turns out I was wrong. the gen 1 fixed volume pump physically bolts up but, it’s not 100% because it’s missing the dowel needed for the gen2/3 fitment. I will get it figured out and tested.

And fyi - these trucks run way overfilled oil for exactly the reasons you highlighted. Same page with ya on all that
Wait, so we SHOULD be running WAY over filled oil? I run almost a half quart over. So does anyone know at what point we are aerating (sp?) the oil?
 

BigTaco

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Geoff,
Any thoughts toward running a higher capacity oil pan? No one makes one that I know of but it’s interesting that no one has consider Ed making one. An 8-10 quart pan that fit in the same amount of real-estate would be cool. More oil molecules to share the workload is always nice. Anyone at PPE reading this?? Lol

Also, are you planning on adding an air to oil cooler to the existing cooling circuit? It does appear that the current cooling system for ecoboost engines work really well. Adding the full race radiator going get the job done?

Thanks,
Ron V
 
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full-race geoff

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To explain further, when test fitting the cyclone / gen 1 ecoboost 3.5 oil pump it physically fits with the matching pickup. The issue is there is no dowel and that would need to be added for gen 2/3 fitment. Here is the photo comparing both:

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You can see the top which is the 11-12 has a recessed bore in that general zone.

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I sent photos to boundary asking if they can add the dowel in. And also if they’d make a tool steel timing sprocket. Sounds like as of this morning they’ve moved it to the top of the list and engineering started
 
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full-race geoff

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I can’t wait to work with you again.
Right back at ya Timmy! Great to hear from you after all these years - Are you still in NM?
Any thoughts toward running a higher capacity oil pan? No one makes one that I know of …
Also, are you planning on adding an air to oil cooler to the existing cooling circuit?
100% agreed - More oil pressure, more oil capacity, and more oil cooling are the objective. Fully installing the air to oil cooler and deleting the oem oil to coolant heat exchanger makes more improvement in oil temps than changing the radiator.

And there is real estate under the oil pan and to add a few quarts, I’m fabricating a sheet metal extension and will need to tackle a pickup next
 
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