FORScan/Amp pro

Discussion in 'Ford Raptor Audio/Video/Electronics Forum [GEN 1]' started by Tx State, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. Tx State

    Tx State Full Access Member

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    HI everyone, I have been looking into upgrading my audio in my truck and I have a couple questions. It seems like the cheapest way to get a clean signal is using the forscan method. Iv done some research but still have a few questions. I found this thread http://www.2gfusions.net/showthread.php?tid=3704 and noticed that he enables line level with optional sub/ front center enabled. What does that mean and is it ncessary to do? Can i just get by with where he disables eq processing? If i do those both does that shut down my factory amp making my door speakers useless until I add an aftermarket amp to run wires straight to the speakers from the aftermarket amp? One more question, if i go the route of the pac amp pro does that also make the door speakers not work? What i mean by that is can i plug up the pac amp pro and only use it to wire in my sub amp but still have the front and rear rcas available for when I'm ready to run amps for my door speakers. Sorry if I didn't make much sense on some of the questions I am trying to ask. Thank you all for the help!
     
  2. Tx State

    Tx State Full Access Member

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    Also another question. If i use the RF DSR1 to just run my subs will that stop sound being sent to my door speakers?
     
  3. Tx State

    Tx State Full Access Member

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    Does anyone know if the RF DSR1 makes you get rid of the sony amp or can you run the sony amp with the DSR1 installed without it affecting door speakers?
     
  4. mrpink

    mrpink Member

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    Hi there.

    The Forscan EQ disable (727-01-02 = 00xx xx..) will NOT disable output (to door speakers) from your SONY amp.
    It will just lift the factory applied EQ curve, resulting in a flat output frequency curve from the Sony amp (which is what you want). So you're good to go doing that. (It's also a MUST, if you plan to tap into the speaker level signal at the Sony amp's outputs).

    The PAC is unreliable. It periodically freezes, and puts out popping noises. If you install it behind the radio, you'll have to disassemble the surrounding trim and remove the radio every time it freezes, so that you can power-cycle it to reset.

    The Rockford DSR has line-level RCA inputs. Are you planning to install it A: between head unit and amp, or B: post-amp?

    If A: Your head unit has no RCA outputs (to my knowledge...), so hookup will require a high-level to line level conversion, cutting into the input harness of the Sony amp, etc etc. This type of hookup might pick up alternator whine and other noises, and produce a popping on startup/shut down (if installed before the amp).

    If B: this is a much better choice, using its high-level inputs with auto sensing. Before you do this, make sure you disable EQ by applying the Forscan code mentioned above. However, now you have a factory amp, then a DSR, then the additional aftermarket amp(s) you'll need. Plus you'll need to know the speaker output color coding at the Sony's output harness.

    Instead of the DSR plus additional amps, may I strongly recommend a JBL MS-8 instead.
    Just take the high-level outputs from the SONY amp, (after EQ has been disabled to flat-frequency curve), and you're done. The MS-8 will provide the high-level input processing, and summing, the 32-band EQ, the multichannel amps, and even RCA outputs for additional (subwoofer) amp(s) - all in one box.

    Should you have reservations about the MS-8's seemingly low power rating... - DON'T.
    If you observe and understand speaker impedances and sensitivity, amplification class, current, and actual real-life wattage consumption -and apply them properly in your install, - then Nobody needs more than an MS8.

    Should you be interested in a complete (similar) install description, please see my post:
    https://www.fordraptorforum.com/threads/mcintosh-morel-install-phase-1.58434/

    any further questions, please don't hesitate...
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
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  5. Tx State

    Tx State Full Access Member

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    Thank you for the reply it really helps. I do have some more questions though if I do the forscan code that you mentioned Would I be good to use an Lc2i hooked up to the factory sub wires? And as far as the DSR my understanding was that you could take out the factory sony amp and just plug this in line where the sony amp went and that the DSR had RCAs so you could plug into it from there. Also I'm seeing the MS8 is not made anymore.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  6. mrpink

    mrpink Member

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    I highly doubt there is Anything (reliable) on the market that would replace the Sony amp completely while retaining all its functions. Firstly it would have to have the same input/output harness as the factory amp, which it doesn't. The factory SONY amp does a LOT more than just amplify signal from the head amp and send it to speakers. It is also responsible for chimes, warning signals, artificial engine noise, communicates with several modules in your car, including APIM, ACM, outside light sensor, outside noise sensor, antenna module, radio module, communication module, noise-cancelling module, microphone, and even the steering angle sensor. If you remove it, and loose communication with all the above modules, there will be conflict codes for sure.

    Forscan has the ability to configure your ACM output from high-level, to 4v line level (727-01-01 = xx59 F8x8 xxxx), but it does so through the speaker wires. So you'd have to cut them and re-terminate them with RCA plugs, etc. And you'll STILL loose the communication to several modules. A lot of people consider this method to be the closest thing to completely bypassing the Sony amp. I don't.

    There is nothing MUCH wrong with the Sony amp. It needs the factory EQ curve flattened (which is easy to do with Forscan), and needs to be FREE'd from having to drive subwoofer(s). Once you upgrade the door speakers, disable the factory preset EQ, and use an outboard amp to drive your sub(s), there is nothing wrong with the SONY amp.

    Yes, the MS8 is discontinued. But so is the Concord, the Leica Digilux, and the '69 Mustang. And we all wish we could get our hands on one and use it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  7. Tx State

    Tx State Full Access Member

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    Makes sense. So in your opinion once I flatten the signal do you think I am fine with using the Lc2i connected to the factory sub wires after amp. I was planning on hooking the Lc2i by pulling the factory sub and using those wires.
     
  8. mrpink

    mrpink Member

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    Sure, however, the Lc2i is not a power amp, just a hi/lo level converter with some basic level and roloff dials. You'll still need an amp to power the subwoofer. So you're making 2 extra cold-connections this way. It will work, if you are set on the Lc2i. However, the Sony amp already crosses over the low frequencies to the subwoofer output wires, so you'll be "piggyback"-ing 2 crossovers in parallel this way. Also, the sub amp will need to be a "clean channel" (no crossover) design so that you don't introduce yet a third crossover in the chain.

    I'd highly recommend the JBL MS-A5001 instead. It will do everything (and more) that the Lc2i does, Plus give you the power to drive the sub, all in one box. You'd take the Sony sub-out (4 wires), terminate them to (L&R) RCA plugs, and you're done. The MS-A5001 will sum that signal, clean it, crossover it, and amplify it. It will install neatly under the rear passanger side seat, right next to the sub, with easy access (as that seat folds up). The subwoofer wires are already there, just take them off the factory sub, terminate them to RCAs, and plug them into the JBL.

    I have their color coding somewhere in the garage, if you need it, just give me a buzz...
    Just get RCA plugs that are solderless, (and connect with screws) and you're done in seconds.
     
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  9. Tx State

    Tx State Full Access Member

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    Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. I know the Lc2i isn't an amp its just the hardware iv used in previous installs and was familiar with it. I am not sure when I will be getting to subs but should be doing door speakers here soon. With just doing door speakers will flattening the signal be beneficial? Also sub wise I was looking into 4 RF P2 8s or 2 DD audio 10s. I haven't decided yet.
     
  10. mrpink

    mrpink Member

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    Hello,

    In my truck, installing the subwoofer amp (and thereby taking the load off the Sony amp) was the biggest difference-maker. Then the door speakers, and I did the Forscan EQ-disable as the last step.

    Please note that low frequency (subwoofer) wavelength needs DISTANCE to become audible. The larger the subwoofer surface (or diameter), the MORE distance it will need for you to hear it. When you hear people's subwoofers pumping and booming as they drive by, that is an indicator that they're using subwoofers that are too LARGE. Their sub wavelength only becomes audible OUTSIDE of their car cabin. Inside, the driver is actually LACKING bass :))))

    Therefore, in a sedan, a double 8" will present you with more bass than a double 10" or a single 12". I don't have the exact calculations in front of me, but two 10" drivers have a combined resonating surface of about 15". This wavelength needs MORE distance (before hitting a wall) to become audible then what a car cabin can offer. So, bass will be heard by the people at the bus-stop 10 feet away, but not by the driver.

    Unfortunately this basic principle has been overlooked even at car-audio shows throughout the eighties and nineties (where the most knowledgable installers used to present their work)... Even there, "the bigger the sub the better" belief was dominating the scene.

    We need to keep the bass INSIDE the car.
    I'd recommend two 8", or a single 10" for an F150 cabin. Anything bigger is for a bus, not for a car.
    If done right, you'll have overwhelming deep bass inside, while people on the street will NOT hear your music playing.

    Doing it right will involve:
    -chosing the right subwoofer driver as for size, frequency response, roll-off, impedance, and sensitivity
    -chosing the right sub amp that will work together in technical synergy with the driver
    -choosing the proper subwoofer housing to match the subwoofer's internal volume requirement
    -internal treatment of the subwoofer cabinet with proper filler material and bracing
    -blending the subwoofer output with the rest of the speakers, including signal timing

    sorry i gotta go... will finish later
     

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