Help Support Ford Raptor Forum by donating:


E85: Impressions?

Discussion in 'Ford Raptor Engine Discussion and Performance Mods' started by BigJ, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. Wilson

    Wilson FRF Addict

    Age:
    46
    Posts:
    26,054
    Likes Received:
    9,982
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Location:
    South Dakota
    I don't think we need the subsidies if we give every one the choice what they want to burn ethanol is getting better at making it every day we are producing more corn per acre their should be blender pumps at every station that should be mandatory coz I have the right to run what I want.
     
  2. DynoDynge

    DynoDynge Full Access Member

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    684
    Likes Received:
    355
    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2011
    Location:
    Zavalla, TX
    I find this thread very interesting, as it seems to fly in the face of everything I have experienced with ethanol based fuels.
    The current E10, that is being sold here, ROTS in about 30 days. I can't complain, from a business stand point, as I do a lot of carb servicing due to it. Ethanol absorbs moisture from the air, undergoes phase separation & then degrades into a varnish like compound.
    On a dyno, the more ethanol that is added, the less top end power is produced & roughly double the fuel (in ratio) to maintain a semblance of the original power. Some mistake the lack of top end performance as a increase on bottom end. The slow burn of ethanol requires a longer combustion time to completely burn, hence the advanced timing requirement.
    When I see in owner's/service manuals that most manufacturers warn about fuel system & engine damage if any fuel containing more than 5 - 10% ethanol is used, it makes me wonder.
     
    Stepside and KaiserM715 like this.
  3. Wilson

    Wilson FRF Addict

    Age:
    46
    Posts:
    26,054
    Likes Received:
    9,982
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Location:
    South Dakota
    I had a 500 gallon tank of e-10 for 8 years we stopped filling the cars and only used it when we had to or for lawnmowers 4 wheelers now it is full of e-30 I don't understand how it works fine in all my engines. ethanol is the additive I never put a thing in my tank but ethanol if you had straight ethanol with out the gas I don't think you'd see any tarnish I've never seen tarnish in a whisky bottle
     
  4. Humvee21

    Humvee21 FRF Addict

    Age:
    27
    Posts:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    529
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    It does varnish. It's the nature of its chemical compound. That's why if you have a dirtbike or ATV with a carburetor and you don't run it for a while but let the gas sit in the carb your injectors will get clogged from the ethanol and water.

    I let my bike sit for about a year and a half and there was water in the tank. It sat in a warehouse no leaks...
     
  5. Wilson

    Wilson FRF Addict

    Age:
    46
    Posts:
    26,054
    Likes Received:
    9,982
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Location:
    South Dakota
    so gas with out ethanol dose not varnish I wonder what straight ethanol would do with out gas in it other than add water but only because not air tight and no plastic is not air tight.
     
  6. 6.2

    6.2 Banned

    Age:
    28
    Posts:
    17,807
    Likes Received:
    1,623
    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Location:
    Canada
    Death to ethanol!!!

    My sled does not like ethanol.
    You wanna know how hard it is to find ethanol free gas? Damn hard.
     
  7. Madcowranch

    Madcowranch Genetically Modified

    Posts:
    7,310
    Likes Received:
    5,142
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Location:
    OK
    excerpt from Popular Mechanics:


    Most people realize that all of us burn gasohol—a mixture of gasoline and alcohol—in our cars. Just about every gallon of gas pumped today contains as much as 10 percent domestically produced ethanol. Gummed-up fuel systems, damaged tanks and phase separation caused by stray moisture infiltrating fuel systems have plagued many consumers since this mixture debuted, and the problems will only get worse if government policy to increase the proportion of ethanol to gasoline is implemented. Don't get me wrong: Gasoline diluted with ethanol is a perfectly acceptable motor fuel when it's stored properly, dispensed promptly and burned in vehicles and power equipment designed to handle it. Which, unfortunately, is not always the case.

    The ethanol in your gas tank is uniformly dissolved in the gasoline. Alcohol tends to absorb and hold water, and in concentrations in the tank up to about 0.6 percent, any water remains in solution, presenting no problems. (Yes, there are other problems with alcohol in the fuel system, but we'll get to them later.) How does water get into the fuel tank? It's possible that water dripped into the tank at the gas station or refueling depot, or a stray raindrop or snowflake made its way into your tank or jerrycan, but most water infiltration is from condensation. As the temperature in a tank changes, air has to be vented in and out or the tank will bulge or split. Incoming air carries moisture. When the H2O in the gas gets above a critical percentage—its saturation point—all of the water and alcohol drops out and settles into the bottom of the tank. This is what chemists call phase separation; the various components of the fuel are no longer a homogeneous mixture.

    But phase separation does not occur only from increased water concentration, which is actually unlikely in a modern, emissions-sealed automotive fuel system. The temperature of the fuel is a factor as well. Here's the scenario: You fill up the car or gas can with fuel that, for a variety of reasons, is near its water-saturation point and at 60 degrees. Overnight, the temperature drops 20 degrees, and all the water and alcohol settle out even though no extra water has crept in. Guess what? The engine won't run when the fuel pickup is sucking up the alcohol–water mix.

    Worse yet, the gasoline remaining above the water has probably lost three octane points, because today's gasoline relies heavily on the high-octane equivalence (130) of alcohol to achieve its octane rating. It's also missing a bunch of additives that stayed in the alcohol—so the entire tankful should be drained and disposed of as hazardous waste.

    And no, adding more alcohol, in the form of fuel-line de-icer, lacquer thinner or cheap vodka will never restore that gasoline to usefulness. You don't want to add yet more alcohol, lest the increased concentration turns your *carburetor float to Jell-O. The only acceptable way to attempt to save the gas in the tank is to add a large amount of gasoline that's got a very low moisture content. Problem is, there's no good way to tell if pump gas has a little or a lot of water on board. You stand the chance of having twice as much phase-separated, unusable gasoline as before. Better to dispose of the whole tankful.

    To avoid phase separation, avoid long-term fuel storage. Trash that old 5-gallon can with the rag stuffed into the filler neck and trade up to a 2-gallon can with a decent, vented cap. I used to recommend storing outdoor power equipment, boats, ATVs and motorcycles with full tanks to prevent rusting. Now I recommend draining the tank, running the engine till it quits and then fogging the inside of the tank and the cylinder with oil to prevent corrosion. No E10 in the tank equals no water absorption and no phase separation.
     
  8. BigJ

    BigJ FRF Addict

    Posts:
    5,466
    Likes Received:
    1,550
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Just a sec guys... I know you probably know this, but only the 5.4s are Flex Fuel. There are relatively few of us around compared to ya 6.2 fellers. You're not trying to run the stuff, right?

    Storage: E85 doesnt tend to separate, given that its mostly one chemical (alcohol). Its biggest concern is water. If you can keep the water out, it will last you for years. Keep the lid on tight and you should be good to go.

    Gasoline on the other hand is made of several chemicals that don't like each other, and so they separate. Once separated, you're not going to get them to recombine. Estimates are anywhere from 2 to 6mo if you push it, depending on how long the gas was stored after refining before you pumped it (sometimes a month or more).

    Performance: as pointed out earlier, if you tune for the higher octane (resistance to pre detonation, not an indication of power or potency or anything like that) you can play with the firing timing of your engine; you can basically maximize the compression of the air fuel mix before it blows up resulting in a more powerful explosion, meaning more power.

    But you have to tune for it. Run on your normal gas tune and you will see no improvement, and probably less performance.

    Government subsidies: E85 is very expensive to produce. The gov has been offsetting the cost of that production by kicking in tax dollars. When those tax dollars go away this summer, the refiners will have to pass that cost on to us. That will likely make their product cost more than the competition (gasoline). Combine that with E85 inferior MPG and its unlikely many will buy it anymore. So its not a matter of freedoms, its a matter of economics.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2012
  9. Wilson

    Wilson FRF Addict

    Age:
    46
    Posts:
    26,054
    Likes Received:
    9,982
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Location:
    South Dakota
    what is carb cleaner I thought if you spray a little water in it while running it would clean it an old mechanic trick
     
  10. BigJ

    BigJ FRF Addict

    Posts:
    5,466
    Likes Received:
    1,550
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Carb cleaner is a solvant; something that will dissolve and break down gasoline that's become varnish.

    The water trick you're referring to is used to knock carbon buildup off cylinders and valves, not to clean carbs.
     

Share This Page