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Camburg Long Travel Kit

Discussion in 'Ford Raptor Suspension Discussion and Modification' started by Socal Mobber, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. Socal Mobber

    Socal Mobber Member

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    Oh definitely, I’ve seen it myself as well. Was curious what he was specifically running in the rear.

    That’s a bitchin deal!
    I’m definitely all for saving and plan to install as much as possible myself.
    Understandably labor is a pretty penny.

    I’ve been snooping the garage sale on here and other for sale listings online for shocks.

    I’m assuming you have a Gen 1 based on the profile pic, so won’t have any input on the live valve 3.0s....

    My internal debate continues...

    Camburg LT with Live Valves or a traditional custom tuned set up.
     
  2. II Sevv

    II Sevv Full Access Member

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    I do have a gen 1 but have an understanding of how the live valve shocks function and the engineering behind them. They have a set of internal butterfly valves that adjust based on your terrain mode and the sensor inputs. As far as I understand they’re essentially electrically actuated compression adjusters. This lets you have a more “dual purpose shock” in that it can “stiffen” itself for the dirt and “soften” itself for the street. You don’t get better performance, you simply get a more varied range of performance with one shock. However, unlike King or Icon, the Fox 3.0 coilovers are not actually a 3.0. They have an internal sleeve to accommodate the internal bypass feature and the piston is only actually a 2.5. This is why the SVC kit with dual shocks gets you so much more damping. Having the external bypass also gives you much greater freedom of tuning. Whereas the live valve shocks (as well as all compression adjuster shocks) restrict oil flow to adjust their feel, external bypass shocks route oil through butterfly valves in the external tubes in order to change piston performance. You have better shock performance this way, and also a much greater range of tuning with an external bypass.
     
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  3. Socal Mobber

    Socal Mobber Member

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    I’m aware of the stock Gen 2 shocks really only being 2.5...

    So I’m assuming the upgraded Fox 3.0 live valves serves the same purpose but with a larger diameter for more valving support?

    I used to drive a Ram 2015 2500 Cummins overland build, with a Thuren suspension (competitor of Carli suspension with the Powerstrokes) with King 2.5s.

    Obviously, upgrades should be done accordingly based on our intention. After feeling the capabilities of the Raptor, which completely blows away my old truck...

    I have the same plans with the current rig....Primarily desert adventures, camping (I have a Go fast Camper canopy waiting for production), and eventually a toy hauler.

    I’m definitely totally leaning towards the mid travel route, straying away from the live valve system.


    I appreciate all the detailed info!!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  4. II Sevv

    II Sevv Full Access Member

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    The aftermarket Fox 3.0 shocks still only have a 2.5 inch piston. In fact, Fox doesn’t make an internal bypass coilover that doesn’t have a reduced size piston I.e. their 2.5 uses ~ a 2.0 piston, 3.0 a 2.5, etc. As far as I can gather, all you gain with the aftermarket Gen 2 Fox coilover is adjustability in the coil preload, external compression adjusters, fancier live valve electronics and an external reservoir. I’m 99% sure it’s still a 2.5 piston which means you wouldn’t gain any damping. They’re well over $3000 for the coilovers which seems extreme in my mind to not get any additional damping.
     
  5. Idaho

    Idaho Full Access Member

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    So is King the only maker of a true 3.0 internal bypass then? The description says “full diameter piston” but it also says a 3” diameter body so the piston would be a little smaller due to wall thickness plus a seal.

    The live valve with the internal bypasses is just Fox’s attempt to have the “best of both worlds” with adjustment internally done for you and the internal bypass for a civil street ride but a lot more off-road capability. Obviously in Fox’s design they chose to use a slightly smaller piston to make the internal bypass work and the compression changing ability is only as good as the electronics and mechanical switches that control it.

    The real performance upgrade of the 3.0’s or even an external reservoir 2.5 for that matter is more oil flow for a cooler running shock. Obviously a larger piston allows more oil to flow for both compression and rebound, but the ability of the shock to perform and its characteristics almost entirely comes down to the shimstack (outside of extended runs, repeated whoops, etc. which without oil volume will produce shock fade due to heat and degradation of shock oil). If the shimstack is garbage, no amount of bypass or compression adjustment will matter. External compression adjusters and external bypass tubes help with a range of tuning adjustments for the end-user, but if the shimstack isn’t making the user happy, the bypass tubes and external adjustments are just bandaids.

    Ultimately finding a competent shock tuner for reshimming is like finding a good tuner for your truck. Multiple brands provide the option but what the tuner can do with those brands to make the end result is the key. Fox’s 3.0 upgrade is more oil and cooling via the external reservoir while using what Fox thinks the valving should be. Just like the factory shocks, you can also revalve them. Fox will even revalve and rebuild your factory shocks to your spec if you ask them when you send them in for service. Likewise, a competent shop can as well when they tear them apart to rebuild them.

    I’m taking a guess here, but I’d be quite surprised if SVC for example, isn’t telling King the exact shimstack they want installed in their King 3.0’s they sell.
     
  6. zombiekiller

    zombiekiller EXO Crewmember

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    this is the most inaccurate statement that I've read on this forum in quite a while.

    this is also inaccurate post #2 in this particular thread from you.

    1. You can't use 3.0s with an SVC kit because they don't fit inside the arm. The coil diameter on a 3.0 would also cause contact with the axleshaft. There is no tuning adjustment performed on the coilover other than changing the spring. All adjustment is done on the 3.5, which is required for any real use.

    2. 4.0s ( like I have) on my raptor have a use.
    - If you carry more than 500 lbs in the bed, want the extra fluid volume, want the shock shaft increase for durability and want more control over the entire travel range, they work great.
    - if you treat the shock and bumpstop as a complete system, you end up using the bump as a bump and tune the suspension in a progressive nature. Not charging the bump to 200 psi, like most do with smaller diameter shocks, also helps prevent bucking. with a 4.0 I can run 40 psi in the bump cans.

    3. A great driver in a mediocre truck will always be faster than a crap driver in a great truck. This is not new news.

    4. The price difference between 3.5s and 4.0s is negligible. all things considered, you can also stretch the miles between rebuilds out a bit more with a 4.0. Juice = squeeze.

    5. I've blown a 4.0 in my "not enough energy over the back axle" raptor. If your assumption is correct, how is that possible?


    Instead of making a gross generalization, you may want to ask about the intended use and other dynamics... that is if you're actually trying to offer advice instead of opinion.


    Disclaimer: I am not a pro driver, but I do party naked.

    the on-road ride of the svc kit is phenomenal. The turning radius is not. you get used to it though. I don't think that I'd love daily driving mine, but it wouldn't make me hate the truck. I just wouldn't want to go through KR3s that regularly though. So far, I need to do tires once every 3-4 Baja Runs.


    If anyone has a legitimate question about the SVC mid-travel kit vs. RPG Vs HMracing Vs Camburg, I have been in and driven all of the above options. I have had the SVC kit on my gen 2 for over 2 years now ( My truck was one of the very first Gen2s with the kit). I've put about 20000 offroad miles on it. I've only had to rebuild the shocks once.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  7. DEGBTI

    DEGBTI Full Access Member

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    this is good info. since you do have experience with all listed above, can you give a brief paragraph of each and maybe rate them for the guy who wants to go both as a DD and off road in Baja/desert?

    thanks
     
  8. zombiekiller

    zombiekiller EXO Crewmember

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    What are your decision criteria?

    What kind of driver are you? aggressive? whoops? lots of jumping?

    Do you usually go anyplace that requires really tight turning radius?

    What are your plans for wheels/tires/brakes/cage/rear suspension?

    Doing even a paragraph on "which is better" for each kit is really not something that I'm offering up. I don't get paid by any of these companies. I don't receive compensation, and while I'm happy to help y'all out, I'm not currently accepting homework assignments.


    If you have a specific question about any of the kits, I'll happily answer it.

    Here are my basic thoughts:

    For me, the SVC kit is staying on my truck. It has been rock solid. It is the most common kit that I see on trucks that come with Exo to Baja. If I were to pick an alternate, It would be HMRacing.

    The HmRacing kits work really well. Just like the SVC kit, when folks go full back-half, they generally leave the kit on the front of the truck. ( both are that good).

    the HM kit uses bump stops, the SVC kit uses jounce bumps. I have not found myself wanting for full bump stops with the svc kit. it just works. I also don't think that 16-18" of front travel is enough to require a bump stop unless you're only running a Coilover. (granted the shocks have been tuned)

    Both the HM kit and the SVC kit can be driven hard enough through big stuff that you really should consider a cage. ( My truck will be getting a cage this summer. If not for covid, it would already have one.)

    I love the camburg slapper arm/bump stop setup. It works really well. you wont have to replace bump stop tips anywhere close to often.

    RPG is the widest, with the worst shock geometry. yes, you can use stock shocks, but they are working twice as hard as they do on a stock width truck. I would not recommend running the kit without bypasses. TBH, the only kit that I'd even contemplate running with just the coilovers is the camburg kit.

    No matter which kit you choose, they all need shock tuning. The rear suspension will struggle to keep up with the HM or SVC kits. ( as in the rear suspension will always be your limiting factor)


    lastly, I have to hit a jump 20-30 MPH faster than a truck with 3.0 upgrades to catch air. If I hit it at the same speed, my truck just walks over it and the tires don't leave the ground.

    If I want to launch it, I usually need to be doing 75-80mph when the 3.0 upgrade trucks are launching off of it at 40-45mph.
     
  9. Socal Mobber

    Socal Mobber Member

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    I appreciate all that info!!!

    I’m definitely leaning more towards the SVC kit.

    At minimum, I was planning on the Camburg kit. With consideration of them utilizing the upgraded 3.0 live valves in order to slap on a set of 37s already. Allowing me to progress with the set up in phases sooner than later. I’m not even bothering with those collars or springs.

    I alternate between my motorcycle and truck for commuting, so the truck is essentially a daily driver depending on if I need to haul groceries or my kids.

    Being in So Cal, off road terrain consist primarily of desert. Pushing the limits with whoops and bottoming out happen often lol.

    In the long run I expect to have almost 500lb in the rear (canopy, spare, toolbox and recovery gear).

    In all honesty, aside from being able to boogie off road.... I want my family to be comfy and get less complaints from the wife from the bumpy ride.

    Drove out to Baja in November to watch part of the 1000. Stock mobbing the whole way, being the first time I had that much off-road time with the Raptor. Which I had just purchased weeks before. The quality of the stock suspension blew me away compared to my previous truck.

    But of course, as with any thrill...
    I WANT MORE!!!!


    Questions..

    1. You mentioned having roughly 20k off-road miles with the kit and having to rebuild your 4.0s once...
    Around what off road mileage did you do that?
    Does SVC conduct the tuning for their customers? When and how often? I’ve seen other post with customers going out to the desert with them

    2. What experience do you have with the Camburg kit? Is your experience with just the arms, leafs and bumps? Or are you referring to the LT kit which utilized the live valves?
    I’m trying to get any feedback regarding their LT kit with the live valves.... such as any electrical problems like experiencing an imbalance with valving or a blown shock from being pushed to its limits.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  10. zombiekiller

    zombiekiller EXO Crewmember

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    I should have rebuilt them after about 10K, but I tried to get an extra trip out of them and got a pretty bad leak on the subsequent trip. SVC will do the shock tuning for you. Hell, they drove from lake forest out to JV just to tune my truck for about an hour. Its just something that you need to schedule with them. ( SVC also has some new cool stuff for the rear suspension coming that should be "revealed" in march.)

    I have driven my truck, on the mid-travel kit from New Orleans to San Fran by way of colorado and utah, then down to socal, then down to baja, then back to New Orleans. It was totally comfortable and cruised nicely at 80-85. I bought a super duty because I have a 2k mile drive before I get to cross the border ( and I didn't want to drive a raptor on 40s that far on the highway before a baja trip). before the f-250, I dd'ed my raptor from time to time on 37s. the SVC kit smooths the truck out like you can't believe.

    I've been in a truck with their LT kit. It works well. it isn't as wide as the svc kit. The turning radius is a little tighter BUT I question the durability of the stock spindles. If I were going to put the camburg kit on a truck, I'd want the ADD aftermarket spindle to go with it.

    If you're not far from lake forest, cruise down to SVC and ask the fellas to take you for a ride in a mid-travel truck. I'm sure that they'd be happy to oblige.
     
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