KIDOR Lemon Law Denied and Suspension Warranty Cancelled

smurfslayer · Mar 2, 2021

zombiekiller said:
I get that it makes people pissed. however poor choices with regards to a truck don't make someone a bad person. glass houses and all of that.

True, and good points. Still, it’s this kind of behavior that forces Ford to defend themselves to the hilt on every case that goes south, and that impacts the entire consumer spectrum. I’d like you to consider the 18 year old high school graduate who just bought the unlucky Focus, the most car they can afford and when they need to make use of the lemon law because their Focus is in the shop for 60 days on end, and this 18 year old is barely able to scrape by... THIS GUY, is one reason why Ford has very little sympathy at a corporate level once a vehicle with a lot of problems ends up in court.

Of course, that’s a very simplistic example. Ford and other manufacturers do a better job at customer service and attempted customer retention with buy back offers outside of court, but the point is still valid.

And then there’s the example he is setting for his kid.

zombiekiller said:
I'm pretty sure that the worst thing that he could do is hire a lawyer to "fight Ford" for him. He'd be better served taking that retainer and hourly rate and put it towards taking the truck to a shop that has the ability to properly diagnose and repair the truck.

Exactly.

zombiekiller said:
Or take some instructor-led training courses to learn how to operate the vehicle in a way that doesn't cause the behavior.

Most correct answer.

zombiekiller · Mar 2, 2021

downforce137 said:
Like I said, my truck has the same issues at times.. it's just slowing down in a straight line on a rough road will make it happen. There was several other gen2 trucks doing the same thing all with varied levels of modification on the run I was on when I first experienced it. It also happened in the sand dunes a couple times.. I never tried bringing it to the dealership because I already knew they'd blame springs..

definitely a software level design flaw. I had similar modification to my gen1 and never experienced anything like this. It's the electronic steering fighting or getting input from the wheels and then violently fighting back against the input you're putting into the wheel.

like I stated previously in this thread, I get it. My truck has done it, once. When it happened I got on the brakes hard while steering because I misread the terrain and the "bump" in front of me was much larger than I thought. When it happened, The computer's overcorrection destroyed one of the joints on the steering shaft.

The point here is that once a truck is modified from stock, it is no longer the dealer's responsibility to fix it. it is no longer Ford's responsibility to fix it.

let's say that I buy a 4" angle grinder. I start using it and notice that sometimes the cutting wheel wobbles a little when I use it.

then take the guard off, throw a 7" blade on it.

then the grinder breaks and cuts my thumb off, is it Dewalt's fault?

no. it isn't. it's my own stupid fault for using the device that I modified in a way that it wasn't designed for.

If your truck was behaving that way before modifying it, why would you choose to modify it?

If there are a bunch of trucks exhibiting this behavior, i'd guess that the steering logic has been changed post MY2018 and that change causes this behavior.

Perhaps that "change" makes modifying these trucks more difficult?

Perhaps the reason that Ford made the change was to correct a behavior that was identified in previous year trucks? ( they aren't going to ignore a bug that can be fixed on a stock truck because it has negative consequences to enthusiasts that modify their trucks.)

ALL software has bugs. The steering system is now dependent on software. You can't compare this scenario with a Gen1. The gen1's steering is mechanical/hydraulic and doesn't require software to function.

Halo Raptor · Mar 2, 2021

smurfslayer said:
So you’re saying that he heavily modified a malfunctioning truck?
And then proceeded to continue to subject the truck to the conditions that caused the malfunction, likely making it worse, and then returned it to -I will call it: significantly closer to stock than seen in his videos and complains about the damage not being covered under warranty?

1) How is the above scenario that you described not abuse of the vehicle?
2) how is the facts from his own videos not evidence of warranty fraud?
3) In what reality is modifying a malfunctioning vehicle smart?

I think everytime they fixed it he hoped it would go away. It didnt, it returned. It was in the Ford dealer modified on numerous occasions so they were fully aware, he never tried to dupe them. He took everything off because it looked like they were going to take the truck back and he was going to get another one. They denied his claim and that is where he is today. They fixed his truck the way it was a few times. On his last Raptor, he admits to everything going wrong with it being his fault, and probably would have never got rid of it if it wasnt involved in an accident that the insurance company totaled it over. He hasnt like his new one from day 1, he always said his 2017 seemed to be built better. He has had tons of problems with that truck.. I told him in my opinion it was built on a Friday.

TwizzleStix · Mar 2, 2021

@downforce137
@smurfslayer

I'm really curious about the "problem". There are too many unanswered questions. I'm quite sure it isn't a "design flaw". It doesn't appear to me at this point that it is a basic mechanical problem either. It is a function of sensor confusion. The kickback is an electronic response to exceeding the limits of the sensor(s). The broken rack/components is the mechanical failure associated with the suspension kickback into the rack, NOT the rack failing due to the electronic kickback. Please give some more detail in response to these questions:

1) What drive/steering mode(s)?

2) Traction Control On/Off?

3) Advancetrac On/Off?

downforce137 · Mar 2, 2021

TwizzleStix said:
@downforce137
@smurfslayer

I'm really curious about the "problem". There are too many unanswered questions. I'm quite sure it isn't a "design flaw". It doesn't appear to me at this point that it is a basic mechanical problem either. It is a function of sensor confusion. The kickback is an electronic response to exceeding the limits of the sensor(s). The broken rack/components is the mechanical failure associated with the suspension kickback into the rack, NOT the rack failing due to the electronic kickback. Please give some more detail in response to these questions:

1) What drive/steering mode(s)?

2) Traction Control On/Off?

3) Advancetrac On/Off?

Mine was doing it in all 3 steering modes, baja and sport in 2wd, advacetrac off with 10sec hold

I feel as though it would do it whenever I was braking for a turn and abs would kick in while the road was washboard or medium bumpy..

reignraptor · Mar 2, 2021

Appreciate all the perspectives in this thread. Just want to say I’ve done a group run led by Helio and he’s a good guy. Always willing to help other drivers. He’s putting out some of the most helpful DIY raptor modification content on YT. Hope things work out for him.

also while on the run I did experience one death shake and it was scary.

Also worth mentioning that he worked with RPG on the design on their bed support and boxlink bars

FordTechOne · Mar 2, 2021

downforce137 said:
Like I said, my truck has the same issues at times.. it's just slowing down in a straight line on a rough road will make it happen. There was several other gen2 trucks doing the same thing all with varied levels of modification on the run I was on when I first experienced it. It also happened in the sand dunes a couple times.. I never tried bringing it to the dealership because I already knew they'd blame springs..

definitely a software level design flaw. I had similar modification to my gen1 and never experienced anything like this. It's the electronic steering fighting or getting input from the wheels and then violently fighting back against the input you're putting into the wheel.

There is no software design flaw. The calibration is designed around the factory components, ride height, spring rate, suspension geometry, etc. Engineering cannot possibly design a calibration that will accommodate every possible aftermarket modification that someone could make.

zombiekiller · Mar 2, 2021

FordTechOne said:
There is no software design flaw. The calibration is designed around the factory components, ride height, spring rate, suspension geometry, etc. Engineering cannot possibly design a calibration that will accommodate every possible aftermarket modification that someone could make.

can you do me a solid and ask engineering to design a rack that will hold up to 40s? They can release it as a Ford Performance part. I'll line up to buy 3.

FordTechOne · Mar 2, 2021

zombiekiller said:
can you do me a solid and ask engineering to design a rack that will hold up to 40s? They can release it as a Ford Performance part. I'll line up to buy 3.

Right! I’m honestly surprised Ford Performance doesn’t offer more for these trucks, especially since they offer everything from a tune to 3 off road lift kits for the lowly Ranger!

fftfk · Mar 2, 2021

smurfslayer said:
Agreed.

@FordTechOne and I are frequently on the opposite side of warranty / lemon law discussions, but, I have 100% respect for whatever argument he brings because of his expertise in the field and his ability to articulate to us lay people how the mod or mods can and will impact collateral components.

I have to agree with @FordTechOne here, though not that he ‘beat the living hell out of it’, because any Raptor can take a licking that would leave some other vehicles shedding suspension components. But, I can see how he’s possibly put on a bunch of things that taxed the suspension components at an increased rate, worn out some components and then just got frustrated and started blaming everyone else.

at about 7 minutes in he’s complaining about jerking ( queue @Oldfart to bring some class to this thread ).

so... I’ve had this kind of thing that the guys at RA warn you about, specifically, don’t put your thumbs in the wheel... with pretty much every vehicle I’ve taken off road. Maybe he didn’t fully articulate what’s going on here but ... I didn’t see any death shake.

I’ve found a few stealerships willing to do work with aftermarket doodads, at cost of course. Some things they won’t touch, and I completely understand that. But yeah, they don’t want to be on the hook for seen mods and the inevitable unseen mods. Yeah, you can compromise the factory warranty but there are some places that will work with modified vehicles- but again, it’s pay to play.

~12 minutes in he claims that his lemon law lawyer says he has a case. He shouldn’t have a problem naming the law firm then. I don’t believe this part of the video.

yeah, he’s got safety issues... but he caused them.

right.

To be fair, most consumers are in the dark about what to do when a vehicle becomes a problem and most stealership service departments are not much help for vehicles with repeat / related problems. I’ve been successful in a lemon law suit and gotten about 5k worth of engine work out of an allstate extended ‘warranty’. Neither were easy, fun or experiences I want to repeat, but, the experience has taught me to document, document, document and if there’s a weird concern or issue, I tell the stealership about to “make a paper trail” just incase.

I can’t see how this guy could get a lawyer to look at his situation, honestly, and say ‘sure, let’s sue Ford!’. Maybe he wasn’t as forthcoming with info but his lawyer would probably want to know about his exploits returning the truck to stock like condition, presumably to try to get Ford to cover his rather extensively modified truck as if it were not modified. That’s warranty fraud as has been previously pointed out and could cause some problems for them in court.

So my takeaway is this guy has a jerking problem alright.

Just wanted to follow up on your comment about successful in a lemon law suit. What exactly was involved? My thought has always been good luck when people are going on and on about lemon lawing a car/truck. I've always thought this was a very good representation of what goes into a lemon law suit (https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/ffs-lets-all-stop-referencing-the-magnussen-moss-act.609911/).

You can probably figure out what my previous truck was from my link.

KIDOR Lemon Law Denied and Suspension Warranty Cancelled

smurfslayer

Be vewwy, vewwy quiet. We’re hunting sasquatch77

zombiekiller

OG BooBooRunner

Halo Raptor

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TwizzleStix

Pudendum Inspector aka FORZDA 1

downforce137

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reignraptor

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FordTechOne

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zombiekiller

OG BooBooRunner

FordTechOne

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fftfk

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