Cam Phaser/ Engine Failure Poll
- Thread starter Bhollier
- Start date
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Raptor911
FRF Addict
Relax. If you don’t have engine startup noise then you don’t need to change your phasers. Not everyone has this issue.
GCATX
King Dingaling
Jake. Imposter.
Absolutely! The engine PCM varies the overlap between the intake and exhaust valves based upon load and RPM. If the engine is expecting X° overlap and the phaser is worn there is actually Y° degrees instead. In my case,at WOT through several gear pulls, the loose tolerances in the phasers likely had the camshafts clocked incorrectly which resulted in too much dynamic compression which in turn created a significant knock event which triggered CEL and limp mode.
When the mechanic took the valve cover off you could twist one of the camshafts on the RH side by hand at least 30° without the timing chain moving in the slightest. Most people don’t WOT their trucks like I do so they may not experience associated CEL. However, with that kind of slop inside a phaser turning a cam shaft with load under it those impulses will work through the entire timing system and other phasers like an impact gun, loosening their tolerances in the process. Over time the other phasers lose clearance and even the new designed timing chain would eventually stretch.
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My strong suggestion is that if you don’t daily drive your raptor to do the following, especially if it sits for days at a time.
Press the gas pedal to the floor and press start... the starter will drop out. Repeat, let starter dropout or release the gas pedal before it drops out which will allow the engine to start. By doing this you send oil pressure through the entire system and the phasers will be full of oil and ready to clock as the PCM opens and closes their solenoids.
IMO, Ford has asked to much of the oiling system for the size of the pump. At startup the system has to pressurize tensioners, fill four phasers, clock the four phasers, fill the rotating parts and heads as well as lubricate. The phasers have large volumes as Ford engineered them to have an unprecedented amount of clocking capability, minimal overlap and high compression at cruise and lots of overlap for power at WOT. It would be interesting to see the number of miles per engine heat up cycle between guys who have problems and those who have not yet had a problem.
Lastly, it’s all about rush to market and minimizing testing. The end user is a beta tester in most things these days, 737 Max! I read an article how someone drove a mid-90s Lexus a million miles, I don’t think cars are built to TQM standards anymore. Manufacturers look at standard deviations and run a cost analysis on the number of failures inside a warranty and outside that warranty period it’s simply a revenue stream for dealers.
Emissions and competition for ever increasing amounts of power have just made the modern performance engines a niche market, nothing reliable. When I think of durability, a TT GTDI V-6 isn’t the first thought. Maybe a derated pushrod V-8, like Ford is re-introducing and the other two have stuck with.
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Press the gas pedal to the floor and press start... the starter will drop out. Repeat, let starter dropout or release the gas pedal before it drops out which will allow the engine to start. By doing this you send oil pressure through the entire system and the phasers will be full of oil and ready to clock as the PCM opens and closes their solenoids.
IMO, Ford has asked to much of the oiling system for the size of the pump. At startup the system has to pressurize tensioners, fill four phasers, clock the four phasers, fill the rotating parts and heads as well as lubricate. The phasers have large volumes as Ford engineered them to have an unprecedented amount of clocking capability, minimal overlap and high compression at cruise and lots of overlap for power at WOT. It would be interesting to see the number of miles per engine heat up cycle between guys who have problems and those who have not yet had a problem.
Lastly, it’s all about rush to market and minimizing testing. The end user is a beta tester in most things these days, 737 Max! I read an article how someone drove a mid-90s Lexus a million miles, I don’t think cars are built to TQM standards anymore. Manufacturers look at standard deviations and run a cost analysis on the number of failures inside a warranty and outside that warranty period it’s simply a revenue stream for dealers.
Emissions and competition for ever increasing amounts of power have just made the modern performance engines a niche market, nothing reliable. When I think of durability, a TT GTDI V-6 isn’t the first thought. Maybe a derated pushrod V-8, like Ford is re-introducing and the other two have stuck with.
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FordTechOne
FRF Addict
While I appreciate your attempt to rationalize this issue, that is not quite reality.
When the engine is started, the phasers (when functioning properly) are in a locked position. Without oil pressure reaching them, they will remain in that state. Once oil pressure has built up and the solenoid allows oil to flow the the phaser, the timing can be controlled.
If the phaser has failed and does not enter the locked position, camshaft timing is dependent on the phaser spring mechanism. When oil pressure reaches the phaser via the solenoid, the phaser rattles as the oil pressure begins to control the position.
The oil pumps on these engines are more than sufficient. In fact, the pump is variable. If you monitor your oil pressure in your gauge view, you'll notice that it changes with load; it is not proportional to engine RPM like a traditional oil pump. This allows oil pressure to be increased with engine load, and reduced at idle and deceleration. That increases oil pump life, reduces oil shear/wear, and increases engine efficiency.
The timing chain tensioners are spring loaded. That is how the engine doesn't jump time on initial start. The oil pressure is only there to act as a damper and provide additional force on the tensioner under load. If the timing chain rattles during a cold start (Nissan VQ, I'm looking at you) the chain is stretched, the guide is broken, or the tensioner has failed.
Please know that when you make assumptions, people will sometimes read them as fact. We don't need to create false perceptions here.
FordTechOne
FRF Addict
Any GTDI will sound much different than a traditional engine during a cold start. If it goes away as soon as it's warm, it's probably normal. I would verify your oil level and compare with a similar vehicle to be sure.
FordTechOne
FRF Addict
Ford SSM 48168.
The phasers were revised and the PCM calibration was updated. In regards to what specifically was changed in the calibration, I am not a calibration engineer so I cannot speak to that. Also cannot comment on aftermarket tunes, not sure what parameters they change.
For vehicles built prior to 4/8/19, they will receive the updated part numbers and calibration per the SSM, which was published 9/5/19. So if you had your phasers replaced before that date and experience a repeat concern, you may have the old part number or the dealer didn't update the calibration.
Ford isn't looking to deny cam phaser warranty over an aftermarket tune. With a phaser manufacturing issue being identified, they should cover it no problem. Now if you have a rod through the block or detonation damage, that might warrant additional questions.
Raptor911
FRF Addict
You said below "For vehicles built prior to 4/8/19, they will receive the updated part numbers" ... when did they start with the new part number? In other words, did early 2019 trucks receive the new parts?
FordTechOne
FRF Addict
That is not specifically called out. Production cutoff was 4/8/19 for any remaining suspect parts; that doesn't mean vehicles before that build date did not receive the updated part number. Vehicles built before 4/8/19 should only experience a concern if they have the older part numbers. If your early build truck isn't experiencing the concern, you probably got the newer part number and have no need for worry.
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