Cam Phaser/Engine Failure Reports

pastorwug said:

Same here, Aug/18 build date
Cold Start ticking that I called Ford customer service today under advice of Service Rep at my local dealership.
Now have a Case # - not that it will make much difference in the speed in which they fix the issue.
The Rep told me there is a 2017 SCREW in the back of the lot with a broken Transmission that's been there for over a year. No resolution so they gave the guy a 2018 SCREW in exchange.

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ONE YEAR? Holy hell. I have read about transmissions being back logged because they are being widely used and given priority to new production.

copb8 said:

Not sure I follow what you're describing. Are you saying touch the start button without your foot on the brake to turn the truck on, press the throttle to the floor and wait for a few seconds, and then start?

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Yes, so the engine will turn over but not fire, injectors will be shut off. If you have the cold soak rattle on start up, it is due almost all the time to drain back. Oil draining back from both the phasers and the tensioners on the gen2’s. If you can prime the oil system, (example: gen1’s you can turn the key and hold the gas pedal to the floor and it won’t fire, and as soon as you see the oil gauge start to rise building oil pressure you can take your foot off the gas and it will start with rattle gone).

In my opinion, the noise (if it is occurring during a cold soak start) is a drain back issue. Working on better tensioners and looking at cam phasers now. The tensioners are horrible and we will have a timing kit we will be working on once we get settled in the new shop.

I wanted to add, everyone who has there truck at ford and are frustrated. First, I feel your pain and it sucks I know, but it my not be a bad thing. I order parts in large quantities and because of this I get some good info from my parts distributor. Hydraulic lifters and rockers have been on back order and likely are going to be an updated part number. They are one part which notoriously cause for ticking and noise, and not that I’m saying this is the case, but it could be one of them for sure. I have 172 new rocker/lifter assembles shipping to me now and should be here any day. When they come in I will check their bleed down, and see if any engineering numbers have changed. It should be a good indicator.

Ryan-

RMB_Ryan said:

Yes, so the engine will turn over but not fire, injectors will be shut off. If you have the cold soak rattle on start up, it is due almost all the time to drain back. Oil draining back from both the phasers and the tensioners on the gen2’s. If you can prime the oil system, (example: gen1’s you can turn the key and hold the gas pedal to the floor and it won’t fire, and as soon as you see the oil gauge start to rise building oil pressure you can take your foot off the gas and it will start with rattle gone).

In my opinion, the noise (if it is occurring during a cold soak start) is a drain back issue. Working on better tensioners and looking at cam phasers now. The tensioners are horrible and we will have a timing kit we will be working on once we get settled in the new shop.

I wanted to add, everyone who has there truck at ford and are frustrated. First, I feel your pain and it sucks I know, but it my not be a bad thing. I order parts in large quantities and because of this I get some good info from my parts distributor. Hydraulic lifters and rockers have been on back order and likely are going to be an updated part number. They are one part which notoriously cause for ticking and noise, and not that I’m saying this is the case, but it could be one of them for sure. I have 172 new rocker/lifter assembles shipping to me now and should be here any day. When they come in I will check their bleed down, and see if any engineering numbers have changed. It should be a good indicator.

Ryan-

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Ryan,

This is good info. Thanks for contributing! Are you guys @RMB developing a fix for these issues?

signalbobby said:

Ryan,

This is good info. Thanks for contributing! Are you guys @RMB developing a fix for these issues?

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Happy to contribute when I feel I can. This platform is something we put a LOT of effort into, and one we will keep progressing and pushing hard. These motors are really efficient and make good power. I’ll say this, if these were offered in a mustang you would be seeing GTR type numbers and parts available as the engines can be closely linked to each other in many respects

To answer your question, yes we are planning on a fix, however there is a lot that has to happen and we are firm believers in the testing part of development. So we will need to get some trouble free testing done on the engine dyno once we have a first prototype. We are actively test fitting better tensioners now however, and we are close. The new style tensioners are an issue, they aren’t good. As an example ford changed the gen1 tensioners to the new style like the Gen2 but bolt patterns differ. The gen1 engines we build we use a Mazda tensioner with hardened ratcheting teeth, and the body of the tensioners are cast iron, not light and soft aluminum with plunger style spring loaded tensioning.

Interestingly ford has both Gen2 tensioners fed by passages coming from the main oil galley, however the tensioners on the Gen2 which are currently used have oil flow restrictive plates on their back side. This is good because the ratcheting style tensioner is like to use will be happy with the oil to its backside without a restrictive plate. Ideally everything we offer will have oring sealing to the block, whereas ford has no oring sealing to anything, not even the oil pump housing to the block. It is machined surface against machined surface.

If you add enough non sealed or non oring sealed parts that have no true no leak down due to lack of sealing, you get enough leakdown from top of the engine to the bottom to starve components (like phasers) so when they are started the morning after the truck sat no longer have any oil in them, it all drained back, or leaked out other lower parts like the tensioners. So when truck turns over and you hear the clack clack sound in the morning after a cold soak, that is the cam phaser with no oil in it so when turned the inside components are just hitting the housing on the inside. There is not oil pressure where they are suppose to have it. That’s why trucks that sit clack clack.

RMB_Ryan said:

Happy to contribute when I feel I can. This platform is something we put a LOT of effort into, and one we will keep progressing and pushing hard. These motors are really efficient and make good power. I’ll say this, if these were offered in a mustang you would be seeing GTR type numbers and parts available as the engines can be closely linked to each other in many respects

To answer your question, yes we are planning on a fix, however there is a lot that has to happen and we are firm believers in the testing part of development. So we will need to get some trouble free testing done on the engine dyno once we have a first prototype. We are actively test fitting better tensioners now however, and we are close. The new style tensioners are an issue, they aren’t good. As an example ford changed the gen1 tensioners to the new style like the Gen2 but bolt patterns differ. The gen1 engines we build we use a Mazda tensioner with hardened ratcheting teeth, and the body of the tensioners are cast iron, not light and soft aluminum with plunger style spring loaded tensioning.

Interestingly ford has both Gen2 tensioners fed by passages coming from the main oil galley, however the tensioners on the Gen2 which are currently used have oil flow restrictive plates on their back side. This is good because the ratcheting style tensioner is like to use will be happy with the oil to its backside without a restrictive plate. Ideally everything we offer will have oring sealing to the block, whereas ford has no oring sealing to anything, not even the oil pump housing to the block. It is machined surface against machined surface.

If you add enough non sealed or non oring sealed parts that have no true no leak down due to lack of sealing, you get enough leakdown from top of the engine to the bottom to starve components (like phasers) so when they are started the morning after the truck sat no longer have any oil in them, it all drained back, or leaked out other lower parts like the tensioners. So when truck turns over and you hear the clack clack sound in the morning after a cold soak, that is the cam phaser with no oil in it so when turned the inside components are just hitting the housing on the inside. There is not oil pressure where they are suppose to have it. That’s why trucks that sit clack clack.

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So even if I can get Ford to "fix" this, they are just going to put the same junk back in there?

Crash45 said:

So even if I can get Ford to "fix" this, they are just going to put the same junk back in there?

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Yes - another reason my dealer didn't want to do mine. They want to just let it blow up, get new engine, and hopefully have a fix for this problem by then.

I'm pursuing the matter outside of Ford's customer line. If anyone wants to discuss our common issues further let me know. It can only solidify our cases with Ford.

Following this in case I have to pay out of pocket.... Current cost of cam phaser job is around $4k, right? On top of these parts, is an owner looking at $5k total to correct the phaser design problems?

I brought my truck in Monday night for the dealership to start and listen for the noise Tuesday morning. They didn't hear the rattle so they asked to keep it one more night to try again. This morning they heard it, they've returned the truck to me with parts ordered. Once parts are in they'll schedule me for the repairs. New phasers, tensioners and chain all under warranty.

Reading some of the horror stories on here I was quite nervous about this. My service advisor and shop foreman took care of me flawlessly. Hopefully everything continues to go smooth.

Mine sounded like this for about 2 weeks. Every other or every third start up. Now it runs like a top. I know it will come back bc it did on my last truck. Problem was it was like 2 years laterafter the warrantee was gone. When it did come back, I was scared to drive it. It sounded like it was about to blow up. Just makes me angry...